Perhaps Mr Miskin can tell the community if he wants the class size language to be grievable or is looking for a clause that like all other class size contract language carries little weight and is uinenforceable. Would Mr Miskin and his team agree to eliminiating teaching positions when class size doesn't warrant it or do those teachers stay on the payroll even when the classes they teach are within the guidelines? Where does Mr Miskin propose the new teachers sit? In what classroom would they teach? This is why the classes are crowded. There are no classrooms avalable to create new sections. How about some aanswers?

When will the union understand that there just isn't space in our current school buildings to reduce class sizes any lower?!?!?! I understand that research says that smaller class sizes are so beneficial to students, however, in order to reduce class sizes, you have to have the space to put the additional classes of the kids taken out of the larger classes. Miskin and his union should remember that there is NOWHERE to put these kids if you reduce the class size. They should be advocating for something that can be solved!

How many kids are their in ESL classes? I know of a class at Woodrow Wilson that has 11 kids and 2 teachers...Is that fair for a regular class?...No!!!!!

It is not the teachers fault that School Committee makes terrible long term decisions about buildings. Turning King into offices when it is such a large building. The trend has been large K classes for the past four years. Not the teachers fault!!!! Teachers want the best for the kids not 25-30 kids in classes! I love when people blame teachers, when is the last time you were in a classroom.

I like how people are trying to create an argument in favor of over-crowded classrooms based on their deep-seeded hatred of both unions and (potential) tax hikes. I mean, how silly is that? It's argument for the sake of argument at this point.

The end result is the same no matter how much crying and pouting goes on: You sheep will pay what we ask (because we have, and always will have you by the short-hairs), and I'll keep enjoying my (paid) summer vacations. Thanks for the laugh, no get back to work.

The problem with the middle school class sizes is the broken feeder system, not that the class size provision isn't in the contract. Fix that, and you fix most of the problem.

Your attitude is the reason I plan to tell every Town Meeting member in my precinct to give not a single penny more to the schools!!!!!!! SEE IT IS NOT ABOUT THE KIDS BUT ABOUT GREEDY TEACHERS LIKE YOU WHO WANT SUMMERS OFF!!!!!

Susan and Linda, you both mentioned issues with the feeder system. For those of us without as good a memory, can you remind us which elementary schools feed each middle school?

Also to those with history - can anyone explain why there are so many former schools all over (especially south side)? Why were they closed? Is forecasting relatively new to the district?

I was replying to night and weekends... If only a handful of teachers have that attitude that is a handful too many!! That comment tells me it is about the money and not the kids!!!!! For that reason I think the teachers should not get a raise a step a level or whatever else gives them more money ... And if they want a set work day ... Put 8 hours into the contract ... Work like the rest of us ... Work all summer long on curriculum development and professional development ... There is no need for 6 weeks off in the summer and dec feb and April vacation!!! What private sector employee gets that?? He'll what municipal employee gets that??? I

Teachers do spend the summer working on curriculum and professional development! As for an 8 hour day.... if you want students to really learn while they are at school you wouldn't be asking teachers to work like the rest of us.... have you ever taught? the teachers that I know don't go around telling other people how they should go about their professions. Spend a week... hell spend a day as a teacher... if you still feel the same id be very surprised. Also as a parent ask yourself do you want a teacher who waks thru the door at 9 am as the students arrive and then leaves as soon as the kids are gone or do you want a teacher who gets there early to be totally prepared for the day and then spends 2 hours after school preparing more correcting papers and taking time to tutor students or have conferences with parents? If you want teachers to work like the rest of us they'd be getting a LOT of overtime.

FTA is asking that the school committee adhere to their stated policy and reduce class size to the recommended maximum of 25. This is NOT OUTRAGEOUS!

The FTA is asking that language on class size be included in the new contract
based on the current recommendations on class size already set out by the
School Committee since:
l. The new teacher evaluation system is based on student performance;
2. Student performance is impacted significantly by class size; and
3. Student population in Framingham is increasing (incoming kindergarten classes are 700-800 students, up from 500-600).

This is not unreasonable.

Yes, it is a matter of money.
Yes, it is a matter of space.

If it were just a matter of money, the teacher contract would already be settled.
You should thank the teachers for bringing these issues to light.

And yes, I am a teacher.

Want to talk about the increase in SPED costs as more students are referred for lack of progress in their regular classrooms?

No one has answered my question.....if the union wants reduced class sizes, where do they propose putting the students who will be pulled out of large classes to make smaller ones? No, and I mean NO, elementary school has ANY space to make any additional classroom space. So, again, FTA......where do you propose these additional classes be housed?

J Scott- good questions here. Since I'm a school committee member , I'll clarify a few things from my personal perspective, not an official board one.

Buildings: One of the earlier posters asked about southside buildings and forecasting. It all connects. One the big elementary issues is with placement of the buildings vs. the kids. When all the "northside" schools were built in the 50s -70's, that was where all the population growth occurred. When a number of southside schools were closed and sold in the early 80s that was in response to declining population and the need to raise funds after Prop 2 1/2. However, as the population growth shifted back towards the south side in the last few years, you have a dilemma of kids not being where the schools are and transportation costs.

More buildings:
The second issue is that several of our buildings such as King and Juniper would never be built as schools today because they are way too small in terms of number of classrooms and small SPED areas. In terms of number of classes, Juniper would never have worked as a full elementary school the way schools are used today. King has that issue as well, though to a somewhat lesser extent. It is a roomy building in terms of width of halls, etc. but if you walk through it, there are really 2 or 2.5 main corridors that would be usable as classrooms--fine in the 1960s when some schools were 250-350 kids or when you had bugger schools with 30+ kids in a class and there were few SPED resource rooms. In addition, the downstairs gym and downstairs cafeteria create all sorts of accessibility issues. In the end, the reason I supported moving Blocks over to Juniper is that is one floor, the right size for the size of the preschool and a far better spot for preschool SPED and regular education students. Moving offices over to then made sense since the schools lost their central office space in Jonathan Maynard several years back unexpectedly and since spending $ at offices at Fuller didn't make sense given the state of that building , though I think school administration and school committee did not do the job we should have explaining the rationale as more about BLOCKS than about offices.

Last building thought:
I did ponder the notion of reserving King for K center, and it would not be impossible to shift that back--some room on the back hall has kept as classes for exactly that reason in case we want/need a small K overflow in the next few years. However, I would also point out some challenges to that other than the ones I already mentioned. Using King as a school puts another school in exactly the WRONG location in terms of where kids are and in terms of transportation. In addition, one of the big complaints or worries members of the public shared during reorganization discussions was fear of too many transitions for kids. While I personally know of places that have all K schools and think it would work, it was a point raised to give pause. Lastly, it is interesting to note that the building analysis done at King during all this did point out that one could build a new, bigger school in back of King if one wished. Not likely a great choice location wise for many of the issues about, but thought I'd point it out. Hope context on this helps.

As for Cameron- great Q. Middle schools are often the places with classes that are "too big" or "too small" due to the team models. The challenge is what happens when the numbers are in between the need for 4 whole homerooms and 3. For example, if there are 76 kids in a group, do you create three at slightly over 25 or 4 at 19. I'd push for 19, but fiscally that is challenging. Cameron's class size went up from grade 6 to 7 this year, something that doesn't usually happen since there are a number of area private schools that start at 7th grade. Nice vote of confidence for the school, but created class size issues. I think Cameron got a few more kids into 6th than they expected, but you'd have to ask someone in the district about that. Cleaning the MS class sizes (starting with the core academics) is one of the Supt's top priorities for FY14. I don't think it is a space issue at Cameron since they did have 4 person teams in the past, but I'd have to double check that since they have a bigger sped strand than in past. It is important to note that the other two middle schools have very few issues with class sizes and that the elementary classes, while at the top end of the guidelines are almost all within guidelines. It is also possible that looking at schedules in a different way within the schools might provide some opportunities, though as someone who does exactly that during my day job, it is really hard to find solutions to one scheduling issue that don't create another.

Every single question being asked here was addressed over the last 3 years ad nauseum! There were public forums on building usage, public forums on school populations and their class sizes and their were public forums on feeder schools and why they are not different. There were public forums at which there was NO PUBLIC in attendance, but the school department continued to set up these forums for the Framingham residents. Ed Gotgart and Matt Torti gave countless presentations to nearly empty rooms. I know we are all very busy with our lives, but perhaps that is part of the problem. We do not take the time to inform ourselves of the issues and then we spout off on angry rants directed at people who are working VERY hard! Call Ed Gotgart in the business office or Matt Torti in Buildings and Grounds. They know these topics thoroughly and can answer all your concerns with poise and knowledge. They know this district inside and out.

Margaret: I have sat at many meetings with you with very few parents in the audience; and I agree completely with you that it is sad how many times rooms are empty for meetings and forums.
That said, I gladly welcome discussion (not mudslinging) of issues on the Framingham Patch site.
Parents are welcome to ask questions anytime and Patch welcomes thoughtful conversations and debates of all school issues.

All - you might to know that, based on comments on the Framingham Teachers Asssociation facebook page, these comments are considered ignorant and uninformed. And this from a teacher no less.. I would think a teacher would never call someone ignorant for expression their opinion.