Am sure this will be a contentious one, given there was such a passionate response a year ago when all of this upheaval was on the table. My naive take: I'm all for neighborhood schools as long as there is parity in the quality of the teachers and facilities.

Would love to comment on this issue Susan but first, can you tell me where I can find the statistics you metioned, on how many students live where, on the north or south side of route 9?

Donna: Here is a link to the task force document
http://www.framingham.k12.ma.us/district_docs/TaskForceFeb09.pdf

From the task force report: If “district” is defined as proximity to a school, 50% of the population would attend three
elementary “neighborhood” schools south of Route 9, while the other 50% would be distributed
among the 5 elementary schools north of Route 9. Since Barbieri houses only students in the
Two-Way Bilingual program, that would be an even greater burden on McCarthy and Wilson.

Keep in mind the report was finalized in 2009.
IMO, the task force was a nice diverse group that did a good job.

I second Samantha's comments. I too am all for neighborhood schools given that there would be equity in class size/overall school numbers, socioeconomic grouping, etc....

Great topic. I favor school choice. I liked having a choice of which public school to send my child to. The schools are not all the same. I think parents of Kindergarteners appreciate the choice and I think homebuyers like it too. Still, I think most people choose the school closest to their home.

The task force did an admirable job a couple of years back, but I lost confidence in the process when I saw they were using old district maps. Coupled with the school pairings for the reorg, our 'neighborhood' school for 3 of the 6 K-5 years was to be the farthest school from our home. How was that going to save on busing?

I don't think we can reach any conclusions on whether school choice is worth the cost until we know what the real cost is. And until we decide whether or not to implement school reorg. No matter what, we're still going to have to bus kids from the south to the north. We're still going to bus kids with special needs. We're using far fewer buses since implementing the 2-mile policy. How much will eliminating school choice save us?

There's a couple unique things about the Framingham Schools that I'd like to retain. School choice, 2-way and SAGE are three of them.

I say pay for choice or go back to neighborhood schools. As a parent of a SPED student we were forced to a school further from us as there were no SPED services at the elementary school within walking distance of our home. When you get into it, there are more complexities to this issue.
And this is a major hot button I realize but I still do not understand why Barbieri (which is such large physical facility) is allowed to continue with the two-way program? Sure it's great to have a child become bilingual but with the economy the way it is and the situation the schools are in fincancially shouldn't this be done on the parents' own dime? I consider it one of those "extras" which is fantastic but with the need for more South-side elementary schools it seems a shame that Barbieri is off limits.

I don't recall seeing anything to show that 2-way costs more than the standard curriculum. As long as the teacher/student ratio is the same, what's the difference what language they're speaking? Barbieri is pretty close to capacity, but if the district wanted to move the program to another facility in order to free up a south side school, I don't think it would be a big deal.

SPED on the other hand, costs a whole lot. I heard the other day that Framingham is spending $18 million on the 200 kids that are sent out of district. To me, that's where we should see if there's money to be saved.

Every indication is that the district will charge for School Choice next year.

I also agree with Susan, I would love the neighborhood schools, as long as the same things such as a great balance of teachers and programs are provided to all the school equally.

Like other posters, I don't see the educational advantage if the teaching quality and the curriculum are the same. When you compare like populations (for example, non-low income/ non ELL/ non-SPED program kids) side by side at the schools, you pretty much get the same achievement scores. So it seems like more of a preference/like than a need. SPED/ELL achievement gaps that might alter the school's overall score are outside of the scope of choice as they are assigned programs.

I would normally prefer neighborhood schools, if all the schools were able to offer the same services, the same curriculum, and have similar socio-economic groupings. I'm not sure that that's possible at the present time, given the way that the schools are located. I do think that something is lost with not having neighborhood schools, though. My older kids attended when there were still neighborhood schools, so we had no choice and they got to know all of our neighbors and grew up together. My younger kids had choice and I felt that something was lost there. We had 4 buses coming to our corner, for a street with only 12 houses, and the kids really didn't get to know each other. I do think with the current bus fee that there has to be a choice fee. Otherwise, it's like you're punishing people for choosing a school near their home. We have to pay the bus fee to go to the school nearest our house (which is still 1 1/2 miles away), yet if I chose a school across town, my son could ride the bus for free.

@ John Pearson. When you say "but if the district wanted to move the program to another facility in order to free up a south side school, I don't think it would be a big deal". Mr. Pearson, are you speaking in your leadership capacity and founder of the Horace Mann charter at Barbieri?
The adjusted capacities as they are today (adjusted for current teaching methods and/or certain populations):
Barbieri = 679
McCarthy = 624
Woodrow = 646
Those three schools = 1949 which is 49.2% of the October 1, 2010 population.
Currently we house some Admin offices in various buildings which alter capacity, but these can / will be altered in 2012.

Source: Documents presented at public meetings of School or Finance Comm.

I love school choice but would not mind neighborhood schools if they took away the two way at Barbeiri so that Barbeiri could be a district school for the families that live closest to it.

As a realtor I like school choice. It opens up the market for buyers and sellers. I like the idea of seeing which school is a perfect fit for each child. I also like the two way program being bilingual is a great advantage for children. All that being said, I do not like the idea of switching kids who are allready going to a particular school if we go back to districting.

Yes, in a perfect world most of us probably would prefer neighborhood schools. Framingham has it's share of problems, but it is still a great place to live and raise a family. Unfortunately, not all schools were created equally. I live approximately 2.4 to 2.8 miles from 3 of the south side elementary schools. The closest of the 3 is no longer an option for my family because it is the two-way school, Barbieri. The 2nd closest school, Woodrow Wilson, is not an option for my family because it is situated next to General Chemical aka. Clean Venture. Leland Street -A toxic waste site. Please look at the link to see just how close the school is to the chemical waste facility- http://maps.google.com/maps
The facility that spread the toxic groundwater towards the Woodrow Wilson School and has been fined time and time again for major violations-one of the most recent violations was last year for pumping contaminated water out of their basement onto their parking lot -which is not more than 50 feet from the public sidewalk.(Please google the many articles regarding the complaints and violations over the years-if you are not familiar with this facility and the problems surrounding it) .

I don't see how it would be fair for the families of these neighborhoods to have to pay fees to attend a "safe" school. When the only option they have is one that could put their children in harm's way.

How many of you would want to take that chance? Would you want to be forced to pay fees if you chose
a school that wasn't sitting on and adjacent to potential health and safety hazard?

@Carol Sanchez - I have no official capacity or anything to do with Horace Mann charter. Not sure where that came from. I was just commenting that the south side of town has an elementary school shortage.

If we're talking about going back to neighborhood schools, then one obvious thing to do would be to move the 2-way program to a north side school. Another idea might be to move the Stapleton teachers and kids to Juniper Hill. It's closer to the south and farther from the cluster of schools in the north. Maintenance costs would likely be dramtaically lower too.

Karen's reference to socio-economic groupings is significant. It's logical to think that the gaps will increase if we remove school choice. We have a professional realtor, Heidi Zizza, telling us that school choice and 2-way are good for home values. And as Kristen Nason says, there are concerns over the safety of Wilson.

Seems like there are a lot of factors to consider. But I don't see how the pros and cons can be judged without an analysis of the actual cost.

Jim Rizoli from CCFIILE.COM said,....Kristen, the whole South side is one big ball of pollution.
From Adesa to Natick!

The issue of disparity between north and side schools is not a new one. Historically we had the students from full south side neighborhoods coming across town together to attend a school situated on the north side to make the numbers work.

Regarding school choice, the poster problem for me with school choice is every morning when I get stuck behind a school bus that stops directly across the street from one elementary school to pick up one child who is then driven at least five miles to another elementary school (I know this because I am usually stuck behind the bus the entire time until it gets to the other school). It just makes little sense to me.

We had a great school system before school choice, then made a significant change in order to get special dollars from the state, who later told us that their plan was unconstitutional.

Does anyone know what percentage of the total student population participates in the school choice program, and which schools have the hightest number of students enrolled via choice?

@John - I see we can all agree that the south side lacks schools and the north side has a few school on top of each other.
.
Playing Devil's advocate here, why not move the 2-way program to say a school like Hemenway and the the students whose district would include Hemenway could go to either Dunning or Potter Road on the north side - two schools very close to the Hemenway neighborhood and then Barbieri on the south side would open up.
I don't believe Stapleton, one of the smallest schools on the north side - could fit the 2-way population, but a school like Hemenway or Dunning could.

The problem with moving 2-way to another school is that the kids in the school you choose that are being displaced may not all fit in the 2 closest schools. If Hemenway has 500 kids, will they fit in in Dunning and Potter Road? We'd need to redraw the district maps. Of course, I suppose we need to do that anyway.

@Jensen. Hemenway has modular classrooms which increase its capacity. Dunning and Potter Road are 60,000+ square feet, while Hemenway is 56,500 sq feet, without the modulars. The School Dept can alter capacity by moving Adminstration around, program placements, and modulars, which can impact any school by hundreds of students. The School Dept. should be encouraged to do a Building Plan which documents all these moving parts and what they plan to do for the next FIVE yeears.

I agree that a cost analysis and well thought out plan is necessary. I would favor the neighborhood model for creating unitly among neighborhood kids and reducing costs, but realize this isnt totally possible given logistics. If they could wipe the slate clean, they could make the 3 south side schools non-specialized by moving all special programs ( where kids have to be bussed anyway because it is not cost affective to have special programs at each school) to the north side. These would include Spanish and Portuguese bilingual, 2-way, most SPED. They they could give limited choice - for example people could choose any school within 2 miles, since they dont get the bus. If people are further than 2 miles form any shcool, they could come up with new lines or allow them to pick from 2 schools. If the powers at be decide to allow people to choose schools outside their area, then they could be charged a fee. Ideally they should just sart with incomming K and grandfather others in to stay where they are. Then there is the issue of new K kids not being with older sibs. It is all very complicated and I am greatful that I dont have to make the decision !

@ Pam. Hi. If we changed the program so that all LEP (Language English Proficient) students were in the same classroom, irrespective of their national origin/language, we could combine the Spanish and Portuguese speakers with the “other” LEP children (rest of the languages). The "other" LEP children all attend the Dunning ESL program together and seem to learn English at a faster pace. This would allow us to combine LEP programs throughout the Town. Also, not all the LEP children live in the south side. There are many in the various North side apartments like Nicholas Road or Edgell Road, and in the West at the Route 9 apartments.
The possibility to charge for choice is an interesting one. What if someone chooses the Hemenway School and lives near the Natick line on Route 135? How much does it cost to transport that child, especially if the child is one of the few doing this choice? Do we charge for the cost of the whole bus? Half the bus? Then, what if they are free and reduced lunch, do we charge ALL those that participate in choice DOUBLE, to cover the cost of "choice" for those that can't pay? Do we ask the parents who did not participate in Choice to pay more to subsidize those that did?
You are right, Pam. It is a hard decision, and a lot easier for me to ask the questions, than to get the answers or to make the decisions....I hope that the answers are forthcoming, though.

Putting the LEP kids together sounds like a good idea. Are there any drawbacks? I believe I've heard the School Committee, or the Super, or somebody, say that they are against the modular classrooms. Don't know anything more than that. Maybe some of these special programs could be housed at Juniper Hill if it would free up needed space elsewhere. Don't know. Just an idea.

As far as saving money, I was just reading about the cost of Out Of District Special Education. $18 million for 200 kids. $90,000 per kid per year. Seems crazy that we're debating everything else while this is going on. Is this the pink elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about?

Hopefully, we will get some answers at the April 11 th meeting.
FPS administration is scheduled to present a cost analysis of school chocie versus neighborhood schools.

Donna: A very good point!
*** FYI, the Supt will present his budget on Tuesday, April 12.
There is a public hearing on Thursday, April 14.
School vacation begins on April 15 and school resumes on Apirl 25.
The School Committee is scheduled to vote on the budget on Monday, April 25 with Town Meeting starting on Tuesday, April 26. (Note: Keep in mind these are scheduled dates and could change.)

@Kristen, I agree I would not let my children attend a school with a potentially harzardous situation. Chemicals in the water is so serious, look at Nyanza.....We don't want that. People in that area will have difficulty selling their homes to someone with children who have to attend that school.

Choice or no choice, I don't think that it is fair that SPED inclusion kids don't get a choice. Even among the schools that offer that type of program... We live in a choice town and it is like my child is being penalized for having special needs. You would think we would have a choice at least among the schools that offer the services.