Dave....I think we are really caught between a rock and a hard place.
If we let them float around with no guidance or help then they are going to be a burden upon us in other ways and be of no use to anyone.
If we allow this, then we have productive people trying to make their lives better.
At least we let them decide how productive they will be.
The only problem with it all is the cost......will they stay off the welfare roles? Will they all now be able to apply for "free" health care legally now, and whatever else they can get as adults.
What happens to their parents that are illegal aliens, does this open up a way for them to come here, the ones that are not here already.
I have a lot of questions. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and see where it takes them. If the whole thing doesn't work out.....we're in even bigger trouble.
Jim@ccfiile.com

My biggest problem with all of this is how he can bypass Congress to get this all done.
I wish he would work this fast on dealing with illegal immigration in general.
Interesting how he can pick and chose what issues he wants to act upon.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Most Immigrants on their own, 62%, will not be eligible for the Dream Act. That is a fact.
So for the Immigrants themselves that act itself would be a nightmare.
The first page of this article on left side last paragraph:

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/DREAM-Insight-July2010.pdf

The whole article is a good explanation as to why. The stipulations mandated for the Dream Act are much to invasive and intrudes much to much into the illegal life of the regular Illegal Immigrant. Americans have a habit of speaking for people that don't really agree with their altruism at times.

Joe Rizoli

Think about it....most of the illegals young, old whatever use false ID's.
So who are they? Would you trust a person who uses false ID's or any other false documentation? It's a felony to use false ID'S So what we have here are people who want to become accepted yet they lie to us about who they really are.
I don't know about you but people that behave this way are not people whom we want to become citizens, or be given more privileges.
But since lieing is considered a right of passage nowadays I guess they will be accepted and even patted on the back by Americans like themselves.
The churches are behind them so I guess that makes it all right.
What does that tell you about the churches?
How do you build up a great country with this stuff going on?
Jim@ccfiile.com

If you really want to see the serious extent the Brazilians want to contribute to this topic, just go over to the companion Portuguese article in the Patch about this.

http://framingham.patch.com/articles/comunidade-brasileira-celebra-decis-o-de-obama-sobre-imigra-o

See what the Brazilians think of this. As of this writing, how many care?....

NONE.....I do have a post there though. So when I hear this nonsense about them contributing to society, having a say, getting involved, it is just a smoke screen. They are a society within a society. Closed as to themselves only, and you or I will never be invited in. That is what YOU call diversity I call................. I'll hold my tongue for another time, I don't want the verbal police after me.....

Joe Rizoli

Hi Dave. Thanks for contributing. I haven't said anything further because I don't really have anything further to say and don't want to go around in circles. I didn't state anything as fact (this time!). Our truths are different, I suppose. I think its the right thing to do, others disagree... Thats ok. I didn't quote any statistics this time nor provide any data, so no facts, really.

As to people using false documentation to work being immoral? Eh... I thank the universe I've never had to be in that position. Who knows what I'd do. I have clients that were here legally for a decade, lost their job/case, and poof, now they are illegal. Their kids have grown up here, their country of origin is in shambles, they are a part of their community... Should we deport that family? Who knows. I think it is not black and white. Not everyone that uses a fake document to work is morally awful and not everyone who has never broken a law (if such a person exists!) is morally righteous. Those are general statements that, when made, make me not want to respond because they are ignorant and hateful statements (in my humble opinion). Otherwise, I am happy to discuss the topic and evaluate.

Very interesting reflexion and good examples on how it will benefit millions of people that call this land home. Thanks, Kira!

Kira...Are you kidding me!
For a lawyer how can you even make such a statement!
"Not everyone that uses a fake document to work is morally awful"
You tell that to the hospital that hires a doctor that used a false doctorate certificate
to get a job there. You tell that to the lawyer board who finds out the guy posing as a lawyer used a false certificate!
People go to jail for stuff like this all the time. But I guess for illegal immigrants to do it makes it OK.
Sometimes I wonder how you even got your lawyer degree with thinking like that.
Using FALSE documents is morally and ethically wrong, how can that be any plainer? There are sickos out there murdering and raping women, but have great family lives and are well respected in the church and in the business community.....
I guess we should forgive them too!
Jim@ccfiile.com

Great article! I really like the personal stories- gives a human face to an issue so few people really understand.

Kira what is the difference between a 15 year old high school student that looks 21 who gets a false license so they can drink? Is that act immoral? What is the difference between that behavior and the behavior of an illegal immigrant who even though is over 21 has gotten false documents that could be a false license, to stay in this country when they have no right by law to be here in the first place?

Both situations show a moral character that is corrupt, unethical and immoral and against the LAW. Can you defend the High school student? Can you defend the Illegal immigrant? Some Illegals DO get licenses to be able to drink as an added benefit of the document fraud industry because they are underage. So Kira, are BOTH these situations "awful" or is just the one you favor exempt from any sense of morality or ethics?

Joe Rizoli

I certainly could (and would and do) defend that high school student. I do not think that just because a kid gets a fake ID to buy alcohol, or whatever, that that kid is "unethical" nor "immoral". Neither one of those situations is "awful", in my book.

Kira.....I'm glad you're not my kid....
Jim@ccfiile.com

Jim - I think you are confusing morality with legality. Something might be illegal, but that doesn't necessarily make it immoral. What is legal or illegal is defined by our laws, as created by our legislatures and interpreted by our courts. What is moral or immoral is more nuanced. Many turn to their religion to help them decide what is moral. Many people are are not religious have other guideposts to help them decide what is moral or immoral.

Some examples might help clarify the distinction:
Driving over the speed limit is illegal. Do you think it is immoral?
Breaking a promise to a friend may be immoral, but it is not illegal.

People find themselves in desperate situations sometimes, perhaps unable to feed their children. If you were in that situation, would you steal food? Illegal for sure, but is it immoral?

So I hope you can see that illegal things are not always immoral, and immoral things are not always illegal. But if you feel, which I think you do, that being in this country without the legal documents authorizing you to be here is an inherently immoral act, then it is hard to make that distinction.

I think Kira's point about the kid buying alcohol, is that you can't make an ethical judgement about that person based on a single action. Maybe his friends forced him to buy it? Maybe he just made a singular stupid decision? Doesn't mean he is necessarily an immoral person.

Kira, you would defend a 15 year old kid who is underage, and wants to buy alcohol with a false license? You condone this behavior? You would defend that person that the Mothers Against Drunk Driving would assuredly try to stop in every possible way?

Of course you would because you stated this:
>>I certainly could (and would and do) defend that high school student. I do not think that just because a kid gets a fake ID to buy alcohol, or whatever, that that kid is "unethical" nor "immoral". Neither one of those situations is "awful", in my book.>>

Kira are you joking with us?

Apparently the Illegal immigrants have short wired your mental faculties. How can anyone defend underage drinking? What is the matter with you?

Wow......

I think Kira you should read this from the MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Driving Web site:
http://www.madd.org/local-offices/ma/

"Founded by a mother whose daughter was killed by a drunk driver, Mothers Against Drunk Driving® (MADD) is the nation’s largest nonprofit working to protect families from drunk driving and underage drinking."

How can anyone DEFEND an underage child who is drinking Illegally? There is no defense of this conduct. Notice, I said CONDUCT. Maybe you as a lawyer could defend this person in court but his/her conduct is unacceptable. The only defense you could give this kid would be not to drink Illegally, and stop getting involved in document fraud that perpetuates underage drinking.

Joe Rizoli

Kira...I don't have kids but I sure know what is right and wrong.
I think you are a nice person that hasn't been exposed to what we old timers (compared to you anyway) would call wisdom.
It takes years to acquire it based on personal past experiences, and watching others. You never stop acquiring it as long as you're alive, and there is no cap on how much is too much. It is hoped that corrupt younger kids grow up to be better adults, but what I found is corrupt kids (unless guided right) just become more corrupt adults who have more corrupted kids.
Jim@ccfiile.com

John made an interesting comment:
>>I think Kira's point about the kid buying alcohol, is that you can't make an ethical judgement about that person based on a single action. >>
Depends what the action is. Underage drinking is a serious problem. Because that ONE action can result in gettting life in prison or seriously hurt. So ONE action can be problemic. I think the point I want to make on the original topic is that our society has compromised itself on a lot of issues that need to be rexamined. Things that were looked at as serious problems of conduct when I was a kid and in high school such as lying, stealing, false licenses and other character flaws then are not so bad now. The society we live under now us been compromised. Some of it highly influenced by outside forces, such as Illegal Immigration. These outside forces have made things like document fraud, false licenses, lying, and other flaws matters of conscience when in reality it is not. The Moral laws are still there, it's just that nobody wants to live up to them thus the third world mentality that runs South American countries has hit our area in full force.

That is why this act by Obama about the Dream Act and immigration itself isn't the way Americans really feel about it. There is an outside force that is forcing us to think like them, the illegals. If we continue to let this happen then our country is doomed.

Joe Rizoli

Joe - Morality implies intent. You can argue (and we apparently are) about whether actions themselves are moral or immoral, but I think morality depends on the intent behind the action. You might argue for example that killing another person is always immoral. But do you see any difference between someone who willfully and intentionally kills someone in cold blood, and someone who, through circumstances beyond their control, accidentally takes another persons life. For example, someone is blinded by the sun, and doesn't see the pedestrian stepping in front of the car and runs them over.

Yes buying a drink when underage can result in someone getting seriously hurt, but so can buying a drink when you are of the proper age. It doesn't make the action inherently immoral.

And as to your comment that the Dream Act isn't the way Americans really feel about it, I saw a poll released today show Americans favor the President's action by a 2 to 1 majority. Who are those "outside forces" brainwashing all these people?

"Who are those "outside forces" brainwashing all these people?"
The illegals themselves and those that support them.
John...you might want to look up the definition of morality.
Joe will deal with you on that one.
Jim@ccfiile.com

John, unless I'm missing something Morality as I got one definition is:

>>1. Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong, or good or bad behavior.>>

It is BEHAVIOR that can come under the word MORALITY. BAD behavior or Good.

The Immorality I am concerned with is the Bad behavior in all its forms that I mentioned in all my previous post. Morality isn't just sexual it is BEHAVIOR good or bad.

I have a book written by a priest called:
"On The Immorality of Illegal Immigration: A Priest Poses an Alternative Christian View by Father Bascio"

I think that is enough to prove my point.

Joe Rizoli

Joe - Yup, you are missing something.

If you Google "morality definition" you get almost 17 million hits. You chose one. Philosophers have spent millennia trying to explain the difference between what is moral and immoral, and you aren't going to get to the bottom of it with a simple definition. Having said that, I see the definition you chose when I do a Google search, and you added an extra comma after "wrong" that is not there in the original. Adding the comma separates the "or good or bad behavior" clause making it seem like it can stand on its own as a principle aspect of morality. In the original definition it is clear it is the "PRINCIPLES" that are the essence to morality, not the behavior. It is the principle about how you choose what is "right" or what is "wrong" or what is "good behavior" or what is "bad behavior" that defines what is moral or immoral.

So as I was stating in my prior post, you can't look at just the behavior without looking at the intent behind the behavior when you are deciding if something is immoral. (This differs from what is ILLEGAL, which may be determined solely by behavior.)

I don't know why you are bringing sex ("morality isn't just sexual") or priests into the discussion. Because a priest writes a book with the words "immorality" and "illegal immigration" in the title, that establishes a link?

If your point is that you are utterly confused, than yes, you have enough to prove your point.

Kira, thank you for sharing your views on this important matter. What's important here is that our immigration system is broken. Comprehensive immigration reform is needed.

We don't need comprehensive immigration reform, we just need the laws now ENFORCED fairly.

This nonsense about the words comprehensive immigration reform is just code words to help support the out of control criminal empire of illegal immigration thst has swept this country.,

When the immigration laws were written they took in everything that could happen with immigration. The problem is now with so many criminals and liberal people who think America is the dumping ground for all sorts of criminally deposed people trying to enforce these laws is very difficult.

So when you here the words "Comprehensive Immigration reform" you are dealing with people who want to ABOLISH any Immigration rules and regulations and basically destroy the country.

Joe Rizoli

Kira...The wolves have taken over the hen house.....
A country can only function as good as the laws are applied and obeyed.
So I guess you see where we're headed. People you're age will be paying for it.
It's called karma......
Jim@ccfiile.com

John, I understand what you are saying but you are making this way too complicated. I show you information, even a book written by a Catholic Priest who you would think would support the liberal mans view on Illegal Immigration. No, he says it is IMMORAL. Why is it immoral?

Because it is planned. Like premediated murder. Lots of planning, contacts, money exchanged to get to an ending. It is also immoral because these people KNOW they are breaking the law.

As to "principles":
"A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
A rule or belief governing one's personal behavior."
Merriam-Webster

John, I don't know what else to say to you. I have defined the words, I have showed you information about a persons book backing up my statements. What do I need a hundred more proofs?

We are all governed by principles, "behaviors" and each one of us can choose however we want to live. Illegal Immigration is a mindset.

Those who see the word ILLEGAL in it logically connect the dots, those who don't, might al well destroy the whole judicial system and a belief in a God that sets standards for our conduct.

Any Illegal immigrant involved in an illegal entry of this country without legal permission is breaking the law. If they as many do, go to a church service prasing God then they are seriously mistaken as to their worship of God.

Joe Rizoli

One of my favorites is the immigration act of 1903, prohibiting the following people from entering the US: anarchists, epileptics, beggars, and importers of prostitutes. There is also the Chinese Exclusion Act from 1882 banning immigrants from China. And the Japanese Internment camps in 1942 (though that was by executive order, so maybe you won't count that one) And dozens of others. So, again, when were these immigration laws that took in everything that could happen with immigration written? And who wrote them? Hmmmmmm

Kira, At the Library there are three volumes dealing with the Immigration Laws. You tell me what hasn't been covered other than the people who want to burn those volumes and start over saying everybody come into America.
The Kiraites speaking here:
"We don't care if you're sick, have TB, are a sexual predator, murderer, are married to threee persons, ...we don't care, come on in"
.......It's open borders and Kira and her clan will defend your right to come to America because...Kira and her clan have decided what rule of law now is.

The problem Kira is, that there are so many Illegals here they must change the laws to placate their illegal activities which you defend. Bsically, to you America has become a pirate ship.

It certainly is a democratic process being on a pirate ship because all the criminals think alike. That is why a pirate ship is a true democracy, Majority, MOB, rule. The illegal comunity and you, wants America to be a pirate ship.
You Kira can be the first mate, or do you want to be the captain? Or is Obama the Captain?...Arrgghhhh

Joe Rizoli

@Joe - not that Kira needs defending - she's obviously a well-educated, articulate woman - but I don't think that reading three volumes at the library compares to the in-depth knowledge you get from four years of college then three years of law school (Brandeis and Suffolk are incredibly reputable schools - sorry, Kira, yes, I stalked you for a minute there). Whether you agree with her opinions or not, I think you have to admit that as far as immigration law goes, she's the expert on this board.

Thanks, Kim :) Kiraites, I love it! I don't love that you put words into my mouth with the whole "speaking here" bit. I am talking about those who came here when they were kids (again, the whole relevancy thing), never did I advocate for murderers, predators, and whatever else you said. But I enjoyed the Kiraites bit, hehe. I guess I would be more expert than most on the legal aspect of immigration, but I don't think that gives my opinion more weight in the big immigration debate - untill you start referring to actual laws and statutes, in which case I got you beat, Joe. Arrrghhh :)

Everyone has a right to their opinions.....Kira as a lawyer is jaded by her support for illegals. If she wasn't a lawyer she would still support them.
When you get into a professional field with a jaded agenda what do you expect.

David...Chill out!
Kim...I know lots of people with lots of "degrees" the best degree anyone can have is common sense. Kira's agenda is to abolish immigration laws....not a puident thing to do.
Jim@ccfiile.com

@Jim - Two things I would argue:
1. An actual degree obtained through years of study of a particular subject does in fact make one more of an expert in that field than someone without that degree. A couple of examples could be Accounting (you don't learn GAAP standards through common sense alone), any of the sciences, and the law. Common sense just isn't a substitute.

2. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that immigration laws be abolished. Yours and Kira’s experiences with immigrants are probably very different. Actually, though those experiences may intersect at some point, what you see and what she sees, by the very nature of what you both do in life, would HAVE to be different. I would like to think that the point is to try to meet in the middle somewhere.

I don’t think immigration reform means abolishing the immigration laws. I’m not sure I personally know anyone who thinks that.

If immigration laws were abolished I may have to start waiting tables again...

Kim.....You should be a negotiator....I think that is your calling. I think you could bring peace to the earth with your skills.
Kira.....No matter how hard we come down on you we do care and respect you.
To get into that field shows you care about people who are bring mistreated.
If you go back to waiting on tables because of your frustrations dealing with the system...we would visit where you work and give you good tips. Of course the food would have to be good enough for us to visit.
Jim@ccfiile.com

@Jim - I'm going to take that as a compliment, whether you meant it that way or not :)

Of course it's a compliment.......
Jim@ccfiile.com

A story about college degrees and smarts. The Metco program deals with transporting kids from the inner Boston area schools to the subburbs.

It originally had all BLACK kids in it, until one person, a simple minded parent but with common sense, saying the program was discrimnatory.

Why were just blacks getting this program? It was a Federal program? This one simple letter of complaint from someone with common sense caused a hellstorm, but it changed the whole Metco program as to its practices and the program after YEARS of being discrimnatory.

The program now takes in Latinos, Chinese, poor whites and other nationalities.

My point, you can bet the Metco program was started by college educated blacks, supporters, and lawyers who thought they knew everything and covered all the bases LEGALLY.

Just because Kira has a college education is good, but does she have common sense? I think she is to be commended, for her studying and becoming a lawyer, but Lawyers are known to be out in left field on certain issues because the field they are in has an agenda, a monetary one.

So Kira, WHAT needs to be changed in the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" laws. What specifically is wrong with the current laws? Tell us, what needs to be changed besides letting every Tom, Dick and Harry, Jose, Akabar and DaSilva with gangrene on his back, and 60lbs of marijuana, blaze freely through the border unfazed?

Joe Rizoli

Sue.....So It's OK for people to post here using other peoples names in their name???
I guess it must be who you know around.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Gee, I think maybe I should open an account trollingpetroni, how far would I get with that?

Joe Rizoli

Dave....100 bucks on it?
Jim@ccfiile.com

It's your money spend it like you want.....LOL
Lets take a vote who thinks that is the person name...so far 2-1
Jim@ccfiile.com

I know Troll personally. We went to High School together. I think he was a year ahead of me. What's up Troll? How are your folks? Long time no see.

Hi troll we met met at Rumpelstiltskins funeral....hope everything is well.
He was such a young guy to die so early.
Nice to see you're still "trolling" around.
Juim@ccfiile.com

Troll I hear you've been sleeping under the bridges every night, how's that going? How's the hump on your back?
Say hi to the Misses, tell her there is a great sale on troll houses cookies at Stop &Shop.

Joe Rizoli

I'm sure that account will be deactivated. Obviously that is not necessary. Though the responses are slightly amusing. And just as relevant as half of the other comments. But yeh, no need. I think we should leave this at Jim's post stating that Kim should be a negotiator and that he cares about me. That is a good place to shake hands. I promise to post more blogs on my favorite topic to raise further respectful and insightful debate. Happy weekend to all!!

@trollingtherizzolis - pseudo names and fake names like Ham777 and yours are not allowed on Framingham Patch, per our terms of use. Please update your account or will be suspended.

And Jim -- patience -- I was at a funeral today.

And as I have said dozens of times. I expect everyone to behave and it is not my job to monitor comments 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. If you think a comment or a poster is inappropriate, please mark it as such!

Dave....and what charity were you donating that $ 100.00...
Jim@ccfiile.com

Have you seen that show? Mean and boring. I can forgive the mean, but the boring?????

DL.....Why don't you come on the show and maybe that will make the ratings better.
In fact maybe Dave. N. will come on too, then it will be Academy Awards time.
If it's boring it won't be my fault.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Illegal aliens are actually my #2 complaint.....see website.
In regards to working to make them legal....Nice thought but impossible. Even with the Dream Act kicking in most of them wouldn't qualify to remain here.
You must understand the Dream Act isn't an all encompassing bit of legislation there are rules that are in order, and they have to be obeyed. Most illegals wouldn't even make it to first base because of all the things they did to get here. They pretty much disqualified themselves because they did it their way which was the wrong way.
In regards to the Native Americans being here first...some people will disagree with you.
There is talk going around and a book written that Europeans were here first and then displaced by the Indians many years go.
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/segments/1406-4.htm
http://tinyurl.com/7tn2za9
The media is doing their best to keep that story buried, because it would upset the History applecart. Your "We're all immigrants" would be tossed out the window as an excuse for allowing illegals into our country. My brother is more up on that topic than me.
The ADL, SPLC, JDL, Catholic, and Latino support groups, all the pro-illegal immigrants supporters would have to rewrite their history too if this one catches on.
People always have to have an enemy to pick on and the White Europeans have been picked on the most as the enemy to "diversity". Diversity is slowly bankrupting America.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Jim, you state that they wouldn't qualify to remain here? What are the qualifications to remain here that you are referring to? The ones for refugees? Battered persons? Juveniles? Entries without inspection? Those who entered with a Visa? Those under the Convention Against Torture? Can you specify these qualifications you speak of that people need to meet in order to "remain here"? And maybe also these "rules that are in order"? What are these rules you speak of? Thanks for clarifying...

Here is a link for the requirements for students....
http://dreamact.info/students
One interesting one....Good moral character is one of the requirements..
Does using false ID'S, false licenses, etc etc....show good moral character?
Who determines what is good moral character? You?
As you can see these people can be involved in the shadiest activities but I guess they must be lowering the standard of what "Good Moral" character is.
Kira....all those refugees coming here under those issues you mentioned are few
compared to the millions who are here working in the slave trade they agreed to be part of.
What happens later on is the illegals part of the rank and file slave trade claim those other things you mention as they know what buttons to press to get action.
Another way they show "Good Moral" character.
It's pretty much one big scam....but what else is new. People that are morally bankrupt and dishonest need lawyers too. If they didn't, 95% of the immigration lawyers would be out of business.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira, I already touched up on this in a previous post.

Dream Act vs Reality
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/DREAM-Insight-July2010.pdf

The points you bring out, even through serious, are not the topic of the Dream ACT.
You ask any Brazilian upon them reading the Dream Act and tell me if they are in favor of it.
The Act would curtail even their visits to their countries of origin.

Show me a Brazilian that would want to enter the armed Services. In Fact ALL Immigrants in this country Legal and ILLEGAL are supposed to file for Selective Service, It IS THE LAW.

Do you know ANY Illegal Immigrant doing that?
So ALL those here in this country of age are breaking the LAW. Any comments on that Kira?

So basically, get your thoughts in harmony with the Dream Act itself, and not the rare topics you mention. Even those topics are fraught with fraud too numerous to mention.

Joe Rizoli

I like that you capitalized ALL for extra emphasis. It is not ALL, it is just males ages 18-26.

Most of them are probably within that age wouldn't you say? No matter,...they still are breaking the law for not registering and they don't seemed too concerned.
I bet you don't tell them that part of the LAW.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Of course... When you are wrong, "no matter". Why would I not tell them? Its a requirement for naturalization. I have spoken often about the importance of registering. Ironic, because they cant serve.

Also...,its only breaking the law if not registering is "willful and intentional" - not my words, believe me! So, not registering due to not knowing the requirement is not breaking the law. Again, not my interpretation, thats the wording of the law...

Trollingtherizolis here; Brazilian-born “illegal alien” who grew up in Framingham. Rizolis, take your aspirins.
The most common anti-reform opinion I hear is that "people broke the law when entering illegally or overstaying their visas and, as such, they should be deported."
Is the argument sound? Of course – if one is gullible enough to deem it so simple. In actuality, the government (IRS included) turned a blind eye to the surge of illegal immigration because it was profitable – because these immigrants accepted the vacant jobs that helped the economy flourish. Fast forward 20 years and they – and their families - have jobs, purchased homes and assets, and lifestyles entirely embedded in American culture.
The discussion now (with the executive order & Dream Act) centers on how to make official what the government has unofficially ok-ed for decades.
You can be angry and scream self-deportation to deaf ears. Or you can exercise common sense and understand how silly that sounds; the years have passed and “these people” now are just like you. It’s our government’s job to “sift through” the 11 million and provide a path to legal status for those who have contributed to the economy/culture just like you, and tighten the rules to seriously encumber further illegal immigration. It is human nature to fear the unknown; as the average American realizes how “normal” the average illegal immigrant is, the quicker the barriers come down.

Thank you, Kira.

Maria - I'm glad you came out of the anonymous "Patch closet". I like hearing what you have to say, particularly because I come from a place of "illegal is illegal." Please hear me out before you bristle at that (and I'm sure I'd bristle were I in your shoes). There are some very real costs and some very real detriments to our society brought on by illegal immigration. I live in a very diverse neighborhood, and have been exposed to lots of the negatives.

But then we have your side, which offers a whole different view of the issue. Please try to understand that as contentious as the debate gets, the folks on the "illegal is illegal" side are really coming at it from a place of fierce Patriotism - at least, that's where mine comes from. That and the voices of some of the residents of my neighborhood who came here legally, who have every right to be upset that somehow they had to follow the law, but other folks don't seem to be held to the same standard. What can we do to ensure that the people who truly and honestly want to become American have the opportunity to come here, live here, work here, and become American? I am touched and proud when I hear those stories. It's the stories of people who come here illegally to save up enough money to live well at "home" (which does not refer to America), never intending to give back to the country or the citizens who gave them the opportunity to have a better life - these are the stories that make ME bristle. Thoughts?

Kira....So let me understand this....You said...."So, not registering (for the draft) due to not knowing the requirement is not breaking the law". Consider this... you get caught driving 100 MPH, you say to the cop....No one told me the speed limit was 65. Is ignorance of the law the excuse?
Doesn't seem like that is going to hold up in court.
Maria..I see your point and agree with it up to a point.....the real issue is who are these people? They have been using false documents for years...so how do we sift through all that mess and prove who's who? I guess we just give them a new identity and go from there?? And they keep the old ones just in case.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Jim, its not my words, its the words the law is written - either by mistake or on purpose. Statutory rape - doesn't matter if you thought that the person you were sleeping with was of age, or even if he or she TOLD you they were of age. Speeding, doesn't matter how fast you were going. Trespassing, same thing. We don't care if you thought you were on your property, if you stepped onto mine you trespass. The law says that knowing or unknowing, you broke it! Here, the LAW states that it is only illegal to no register if that non registration was "willful and intentional". Thus, if you didn't know then its not breaking THAT law. When you restated my words, you restated the law correctly. You are ALMOST there at comprehending it. It is the opposite of speeding laws. Here, ignorance of the law is an excuse. I didn't write the law, thats just what the law says, that to break it you must have known it existed... It does hold up in court. Can't be any simpler.

Maria, thanks so much for joining.

To make Kim smile, and I also love to see where people get their information, here is a blurb from the DOL's Employment and Training Advisory: "If the Status Information Letter indicates that an individual was not required to register for the Selective Service, then he is eligible to enroll in services authorized or funded by Title I of WIA. If the Status Information Letter indicates that the individual was required to and did not register, he is presumed to be disqualified from participation in WIA Title I-funded activities and services until it can be determined that his failure to register was not knowing and willful." http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL_11-11_change2-Acc.pdf

It's very simple, Jim, and I'm surprised you don't know this with your vast knowledge of... (???)

No one is awarded a work permit or green card based on their word. Thanks to the president's executive order, I've begun "gathering my paperwork" to prove who I am. This includes school transcripts, pictures, testimonies from teachers, employers, institutions for which I volunteer, my Brazilian passport, proof of my residency in Brazil prior to moving here... and the list goes on (it's LONG). It is the burden of the petitioner (the immigrant, me) to PROVE who he is. It is then the job of the government to investigate and approve or deny these petitions.

The government can easily find out what we had for breakfast, if it wanted to. Are you naive enough to think it can't distinguish a fake passport from a real one?

The cherry on top: I believe the cost of all this investigation and all the admin work required to approve one's process for legalization should be paid by the petitioner. In other words, if it costs the government $5,000 per person to do all the leg work, then the government should charge $5,000 per process. Here's a nice economy-stimulating bone for you; real job creation.

Kira, these people have NO STATUS at all, they are illegal.
No law applys to them because, they are illegal. They can come and go anytime they want, because they are illegal.
They can murder, rape, cause mayhem, bring disease, and leave the country, without being caught, because they are illegal.

As to the Rizolis taken their asprins, we don't need to, the Citizens of Framingham are going to be paying for it till hell freezes over, that is the towns pill to swallow.

When illegals can get dental and health coverage free without paying a dime over senior citizens or even myself who had worked thirty years, and some who have lived here all their lives, then some of you liberals might wake up as to what nonsense that is and what is fair, and in this case, not fair.

The illegals here now and past are part of a corrupt cabal of persons trained in knowingly how to circumvent and to break the law. It has been taught to them, it works, and they aren't going to change. If you think these people will make upstanding honest Citizens sometime in the future, then I can sell you the Brooblyn Bridge cheap.

America has been compromised, it has become the new Rome where it is finally on its last days as an empire. The same things that befell Rome are happening here now. The quality and mindset of these supposed potential Citizens is badly in need of a facelift. Most of you asked for it now except it.

Joe Rizoli

@Joe - can you, in good conscience, lump Maria in with your broad characterizations? She has lived here for 17 years, went to college on her own dime, and plans to open a business here. Brenda Crenshaw, on another post on the same topic, commented on the "80/20 rule". There was a good exchange there, including some comments from Jim. I'm curious about how someone like Maria would have returned to her native country once she turned 18?

Maria shouldn't have any issues, she seems to be a willing participant.
Now for the $ 5000.00 admin. cost.....ain't going to happen. The illegals will fight that hand over fist. How are they going to collect it? Unless the money is up front it will never happen. What they will do is compromise and say they can pay it off in monthly installments..... Ya right!
You plan is a good one on paper.....just won't work in the real world.
If it did it definitely would weed out the ones who really care from those that don't.
Honestly....why would anyone want to be legal? They are making out just fine now without having to spend hardly anything. Once they became above board the spending marathon begins.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kim: We don't know much about the process, yet. We know that those who qualify must have been here since 16 or younger, at least 5 years (time freezes June 15), no criminal record, be under age 30, and have finished highschool or be in highschool. The administration has said that it is NOT deporting those who seem like they would qualify for this. Other than that, details about the application process have not been released. We assume there will be a package put together to send to US Citizenship and Immigration Service that prove that the applicant meets those requirements. Maybe there will also be an interview (usually to go over submitted documents and inspect originals that are brought to the interview).

What is being missed here is the interpretation of a "criminal record"?
Is domestic abuse convictions part of that? Are misdemeanors part of that? DUI's? Is driving without a license covered under that?

These are concerns.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/20/dream-act-allow-illegals-criminal-records-gain-residency-gop-says/

Another article:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/08/republicans-slam-dream-act-allowing-immigrants-criminal-records/

"But the bill is written more broadly than that, Republicans argue. According to a memo circulated by GOP aides on the Senate Judiciary Committee, there are a host of crimes illegal immigrants would be allowed to commit and still qualify -- assault, domestic violence, sexual abuse, reckless driving and various types of fraud among them"

Is this part of the criminal record or do we have as always the "exceptions" for the illegal community that would throw regular citizens residents in jail?

Joe Rizoli

As to Maria good for you, maybe you can rub off on the rest of your 62% of the community that will fail the Dream Act, that will become their own nightmare.

Joe Rizoli

A DUI will disqualify you, most likely. So will a DV conviction. Driving without a license should not hinder you from qualifying, if just once. Just to follow up on that... A DV conviction means that an immigrant is mandatory detention. Meaning, if he or she is detained there is NO possibility of a bond being set. Also tough to get bond with DUI's, though thats not mandatory detention. Hope that clears your questions, Joe. Jim, where did you get the 62% number? Also, of course most people don't qualify for the Dream Act (I thought it would be higher than 62%). It is directed at a very limited segment of the undocumented population.

Maria....You're a great asset to the cause, it's too bad you don't have more who are like you.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Jim, with all due respect, you're a moron. I have dozens of friends just like me, who have friends just like me, who know people just like me.

You are too close minded to notice. You have what we call a scarcity complex.

I like to work with those who look for a solution, not those who only see the problems. You seem to only have eyes for problems. It's unfortunate, and it's a waste of time.

Maria ,Jim compliments you and you call him a moron.
Gee, who really is looking for solutions?

Now, for the THIRD time posted here, the 62% was taken from this article first page lower left bottom of page, how about reading it. It's only been posted three times already counting this time.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/DREAM-Insight-July2010.pdf

Maria, when you become an American Citizen are you going to be An American or a hyphenated American?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphenated_American

When you become an American will you do the same thing your parents did and think the same way they did by having no regard for the rules of America and its immigration laws by helping illegal immigrants come to this country with no regard for rule of law, or are you going to have an epiphany that these action are wrong as a newly made American and set a wonderful example for the world to see.

Maybe then I'll need an asprin, I'll be so overjoyed.

Joe Rizoli

Maria...I'm a little taken back by your response. I guess you're showing your true colors. You might just want to worry about yourself as the actions of some of your compardres might not be something you would be proud of. I gave you the benefit of the doubt not really knowing you. Be it as it is, I will not sink to the same low.
Jim@ccfiile.com

"In an age when human capital is the ultimate resource both for individuals and societies, the legislation would provide stability and opportunity to these young all but-Americans whose education and career prospects are otherwise extremely limited. Many potential beneficiaries would, no doubt, be highly motivated by the prospect of obtaining legal status, and the DREAM Act’s requirements would help ensure that those who do would be well integrated into the fabric of US life and solidly on course for future economic success."

Thanks for sharing Joe.

Nice quote, Donald. I haven't read the article posted by Jim but sounds reasonable... Jim, I don't have the time to read all the articles you post. I opened one but it was 75 pages. I have a job that I work over 40 hours at, like most of the population. Thank goodness I'm self employed of my boss would have blocked patch on my computer this week!! One day I will retire and catch up on all of the reading I have on my to do list.

Jim/Joe - I just read an interesting article that discussed illegal immigration and thought I'd share. Apparently most economists believe that illegal immigrants (thought to represent about 5% of the labor force) actually INCREASE the wages of
Americans (including legal immigrants). It is not just that they are doing the jobs no one else wants for below average wages. But because there is a large body (some estimates 10-11 million, but obviously hard to know for sure) of these illegal immigrants who work for low wages, they reduce costs of production. Also, since there are so many of them, they are also spending money to consume goods and services. (I know you think they ship it all back out of the country, but you must admit they spend something on their own living expenses). The combination of lower costs of production and higher demand for goods/services results in increased demand for labor and hence higher wages for all. Just thought that was an interesting and unexpected analysis (and one apparently held by majority of economists) and thought you might be interested.

John....that's one persons viewpoint, I personally don't agree.
Check this out....
http://tinyurl.com/7one6vl
If that was the case they would be making $15.00 per hr instead of being paid $8.00.
How is that "higher wages" for all. I know body shops that have fired the American working there and hired two illegals. How is that good for the country?
They all start doing it and here we have depressed wages, or as I call it slave wages.
If people cared so much about the illegals why don't they pay them more, or at least a livable wage?
Jim@ccfiile.com

John, where is the link?
You didn't get the article in a magazine that said Elvis is still alive did you?

Actually, the illegals bring wages down. Why else would they be hired? Are you going to hire an illegal outfit that charges you MORE money? I really doubt it, your logic makes no sense, or dollars. Get the link for me. I do read everything even Ellvis. After all, I did go out for a coffee latte with him last week .

Joe Rizoli

Sorry - Here's the link: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_breakfast_table/features/2012/_supreme_court_year_in_review/supreme_court_year_in_review_justice_scalia_offers_no_evidence_to_back_up_his_claims_about_illegal_immigration_.html

But if you just google "illegal immigration economic impact" the first half dozen links also all reference the arguments supporting the analysis in the link. (Just saying that this link is not some random way out there cornball opinion).

John....The problem is we are allowing low wage people to come here that don't help the country as a whole. They end up costing us more by all the Freebies they get.
So how is any of that a good thing?
It's just a matter of time before it catches up to us here. It already has in regards to illegals and their buddies bring drugs into the town. Look at the paper today it seems like the incidences of drug related arrests are increasing.
Give them a low wage job and the drugs follow to supplement their incomes.
Jim@ccfiile.com

The link quoted partially here:
"Supreme Court Year in Review
Justice Scalia is upset about illegal immigration. But where is his evidence?
By Richard A. Posner"

"Justice Scalia cites nothing to support it"

This Posner guy sites nothing to support his views either.

You want respectable sources, listen to Frosty Wooldridge

http://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/tag/frosty-wooldridge/

He's traveled the world and has lived on areas hit by illegal immigration first hand.

We interviewed him here in 2006 on the Boston Common

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGKCtCcqNVE&sns=em

Frosty and crew and the Rizolis were later run out of Boston needing a Police escort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5fzYRNEIfs&sns=em

There is nothing good about illegal immigration. Those who defend it in their various ways either have illegals working for them, or, belongs to a religious persuasion totally ignorant and Biblically and socially out in left field. Illegal immigration is like cancer, how much is a good thing?

This is what you have to look forward to with illegal immigrants, especially when they win a soccer game.

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m3btwwff

Just out of control arrogant people that think they can do whatever they want. 

Joe Rizoli

What makes it even more amusing is the illegals laugh at the American apologist all the way to the bank, saying how stupid can people be to let "US" (illegals) in here and devastate a country economically and have them actually think they (Americans) are doing it for the right cause.
Hard to believe we are where we are now.
In regards to religions role in the matter.....some people speak with folk tongue.
http://amren.com/features/2012/06/israels-opereation-wetback/
Jim@ccfiile.com

israels-opertion-wetback? hehe. That sounds like an excellent source of news ;) Jim and Joe, are you retired? Hope you don't take that as an offense, I am just wondering. This patch following/addiction is becoming very time consuming for me, so I am just wondering if you do other things? I admit, this is not relevant to the article and you don't have to indulge if you don't wish to.

Kira....Sure it's related.....Israel is actually doing it right over there in how they are handling the illegals that come into their country. Imagine me complimenting Israel!
Why the Jewish folks here aren't taking the same stand in America is beyond me.
My brother and I spend a lot of time producing video for our two cable shows.
We get to go all over Mass and even out of State working in interesting topics.
Our latest Rizoli TV show # 12 deals with Town history, Ruggs/Gates house, Clayes House and Salem.
http://blip.tv/the-weekly-show/rizoli-tv-12-6228040
I'm going out today to do something on General Chemical, E-verify, and whatever else comes into mind.
So we are pretty productive people that actually use our time wisely.
If you want to be on the cable show you are most welcomed.
Maybe you'll get some customers......
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira for myself I actually work for the schools . I am out on break right now.
Also getting an I touch has made it very easy to check the Patch news and check emails. Most of my comments posted are from typing on the ITouch, which is quite challenging. I will say it has been educational dealing with this topic even though some post by a few of you were really unnecessary and mean spirited and were character asassanations, but we can take it, it is expected.

Joe Rizoli