Unfortunately, there is a growing segment of American citizens for whom math is an unfathomable foreign language. These same people lack the simple analytical skills needed to differentiate between fact, opinion and rhetoric. They respond viscerally to the loudest, most evocative voice on the radio or TV - provided that voice limits their comments to mono-syllabic words and simple sentences. Their attention span is limited to the maximum number of characters allowed on twitter, as they likely never even completed the required reading in high school - let alone pick up a book later in life. They hide their 'condition' behind distorted manipulated interpretations of traditional religion while embracing 'values' that clearly are in violation of Christ's own teachings. The possibility of engaging these people in a mature, reasoned, healthy debate is as likely as engaging monkey in a similar discussion of quantum mechanics.

Here we go half the story.....
Some might pay taxes but most get back out of it way more than the put in.
Consider this....
http://www.infowars.com/illegal-immigrants-find-tax-loophole-irs-knows-cost-to-taxpayers-4-2-bill/

Want to see our tax money in action come to the health clinics in the town.....
80% of the people are illegal. Hmmmm....whose paying for that.
How about the schools unfunded mandates to educate their kids in our schools?
Whose paying for that?
This article above is so full of holes it's hard to believe people believe this stuff.
In regards to sitting down to talk....those who run the show have promised to do it but fail to follow through.
Bob.....You want to talk here's my email and tel #, but be sure to have some facts to back you up not this crap.
Jim@ccfiile.com
508-875-0835

What ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT reports his wages? What person who hires an Illegal Immigrant admits it? What person among the general population that hires Illegal Immigrants for their yard work, house cleaning or any other activity takes out taxes for them? PLEASEEEEEEE. Oh wait a minute, they do pay taxes, for their cigarettes and beer.

The overall negative impact of Illegal immigration on our country has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Our taxes, our Schools, our infrastructure, the moral adverse effects on the general population because of Illegals getting free health care and even dental care that I can't even get unless I pay dearly for it.

The Latest IRS dependent scam linked in Jim's post is OUTRAGEOUS and is another anger management problem for Americans. The criminal aspect of Illegal Immigration is beyond a shadow of a doubt a HUGE problems. What percentage of Illegal are in our prison system? What maybe one third or more? What's that costing us.? You can bet it is sure more that the billions we get from any monies from them. With Illegal immigration WE LOSE. Our Elders Lose, Our Environment loses, our Judicial system loses. Our kids are paying for things they used to get free as services.. But the Illegals get everything free. You don't have a problem with that? I do.

Having this person post this dribble of lies is an insult to all our fluoridated brains.

Joe Rizoli

None of the responses to Ms Gagarin's blog address the simple statement, backed up by government records, that people who dont have US citizenship pay their share of taxes and probably much more. That's more than you can say for Romney and others like him who pay reduced tax rate because he manipulates money rather than doing an honest days work. But as in 1930's Germany, the immigrant is an easier target for the bigot...doesn't need logic and intelligence to determine, only a response based on difference of skin color or accent.

What does 1930 Germany, and a difference of skin color have to do with this? Apparently you didn't watch the news video link. How anyone can not be mad about people getting monies back on their taxes for children they might not have and are not even living in this country is outrageous. Americans have to be really stupid to think this is ok.

Joe Rizoli

I'm getting ready to head to bed and while I can not monitor posts 24 hours a day over the weekend ... several of you are walking a fine line in this discussion ...
if you cross the line at anytime .. I will delete posts!

Figure this link into your illegal immigrant folder.
Of course these people cost us nothing,  right?
I was right about how many are imprisoned, pretty darn close on that figure.

Part 3: Criminal aliens not tracked

http://m.officialwire.com/main.php?action=posted_news&rid=321291

Joe Rizoli

I looked at it this way.....if the public doesn't get outraged by it and make a stink about it then they are the blame. This is one of those situations that you can have it your way....you just have to pay for it.
jim@ccfiile.com

Thank you all for your comments. While I haven't done the necessary research to opine about jails, education, and other issues that have been brought up (maybe topics for a future post!). I did do the research for the topic of the present post and, according to many many reputable sites, undocumented immigrants pay taxes. I also see this in my work, everyone knows rule #1 for when their day to maybe apply for residency approaches is to show a record of paying taxes. And sales/home tax seems to be a non issue even on here. Again, thank you for all the input (though I don't think calling anyone stupid or saying those who think either way must be stupid gets us anywhere, but hey, thats just my approach...) and, of course, for taking the time to read my post!

Actually Kira seeing someone make a post defending anything with the word "Illegal" in it is offensive. Illegal aliens are breaking the law. When persons start defending these actions with "oh they do this, and they do this" is just promoting lawlessness. It would be like saying cancer is good. I guess it would be good for the people who make money of the horrible disease.

As to the "stupid" comment: You are right but the video link showing illegal's claiming dependents, which you didn't or anybody else addresses is really beyond outrageous. How anybody can not think that that isn't unfair, and un American is even beyond stupid.

Most people are ignorant about the problems of illegal Immigration and the HUGE problem it brings to this country. We don't need a foreign Taliban bunch of terrorist to take over America, it has already happened by people who have the mindset that Illegal Immigration is helping America. It's like good news bad news. What's the bad news, the person has cancer, what's the good news, it got rid of his headache.
As to your first comment here:
>>While I haven't done the necessary research to opine about jails, education, and other issues that have been brought up >>

No kidding. I have done the research and continue to do so and the research is NOT good for America. Another BIG problem that is NOT being touched is in 30 years we will have another 100 million added to our country.
http://www.capsweb.org/content.php?id=1596&menu_id=8

Joe Rizoli

Immigration by the numbers. Let's stop the name calling and really see where America is headed with our Population of Legal and Illegal Immigrants. This is a must watch video.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/recommended/immigration-numbers.html

Joe Rizoli

We're doomed!
Jim@ccfiile.com

Immigrants without papers. They can be dangerous. They were. They ripped off the land from the original inhabitants, planted a crop that destroyed the land, tobacco, which also destroyed the users. It made money for the financiers in England who sent them here. Yes indeed. They altered the ecology and killed off the original inhabitants who greeted them at first with open arms, naively. Oh yes, immigrants can be harmful. Sometimes. The children of those immigrants then turn around and make all kinds of charges against immigrants. It really is ironic.
Isnt it?

Geoffrey...Let me set you straight here.....I don't care if there are a billion illegal immigrants here.....I just don't want to pay for them. So what do you suggest?
Let them all in....... they get everything free, and WE the good citizens just have to accept it? UNACCEPTABLE!
If you want them all here YOU and your buddies that seem to have all the money can kindly oblige.
Problem is you want us to kick all the money in and people like you like to complain WE haven't done enough.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Ironic indeed. I wish a healthy debate was possible, instead of CAPS and !!! and involving Taliban and Cancer references. The US is a country built by immigrants (and, as Geoffrey eloquently points out, one that began by "immigrants" just taking what they found here) and those to come last are always the scapegoats for any and all problems, especially in tough economic times. Nonetheless, the immigration system is broken in many ways today, with people that have been here for decades, paying taxes, and not having any criminal record unable to legalize their status and families ripped apart by deportation. I wish we could discuss some realistic and humane ways of proceeding forward instead of people making baseless assumptions about what it is that others suggest.

Kira, what did you get your second wind?
You have very little understanding about the immigration problem. The immigration system isn't broken it's just the laws are not being enforced. When I was in high school if a person had a false ID that was looked down upon. Having a false document showed a lack of respect for LAW. Now, trying to let people who are NOT legal residents of our town get away with it and supported by people like you tells me a lot about how you view Law. These aren't non issues. People who lie on their documents are doing themselves and this country and our towns great disservice and certainly show no respect for Rule of Law. Those actions are unacceptable. Why do we allow an illegal immigrant to get a job with false documents but look with aversion when an American does it? How many times has the news had stories about Americans plagarizing others works? These are actions society has deemed unacceptable. As a teacher once said "the lawmakers are siding with the lawbreakers" How can a society allowing those actions last? It can't We try to educate people about the problems illegal immigration has on every part of our society. Apparently it's not working on you and a few others who want to make up excuses for bad behavior.

Joe Rizoli
CCFIILE

Kira@...."Nonetheless, the immigration system is broken in many ways today, with people that have been here for decades, paying taxes, and not having any criminal record unable to legalize their status and families ripped apart by deportation".

Complete NONSENSE!

I guess using false documents is not considered "bad" behavior!
Just because they haven't been prosecuted for their wayward, illegal actions doesn't mean it not wrong. As long as they can get away with breaking the law and not getting caught is a good thing to you and especially for them.
With people like you having their say we are really doomed to fail and fail we are.
The US is headed on the path of the town and states to being a Welfare country.
No surprise to me why.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira and Geoffrey - anyone who has followed Frambors or Framingham politics knows better than to go up against Mr. Rizoli. He is a very passionate defender of his views and has (to my knowledge) never backed down on an issue. While I applaud his dedication and consistency, I chose to disagree from a distance. You may want to consider the same.

Bob B - Good advice.
FYI ... it is the Patch policy to use your really name on Framingham Patch.
Please update your profile.

Bob B represents the people that if they lived during the Revolutionary War would have opted to stay out of the battle with Britain and become Torres. The Rizoli's represent those who would not back down and thus we have the freedom we have now.

As to Frambors, the creator of that list has chosen to advocate bigotry in his own way. At town meeting he always says ANYONE can join his list. Not really. ANYONE except the Rizoli's. Apparently we aren't historically prudent for that list, even though we are "town officials" sworn in TMM.
Some topics that are certainly off limits because they might expose more than the list owner wants to expose,

Arthur Schopenhaur said: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Mahatma Gandhi said: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

“Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion..........
Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855), Danish philosop

How can anyone defend actions with the words ILLEGAL in them? Illegal Immigrants? Illegal dumping, Illegal wiretaps, Illegal gambling, Illegal documents, Illegal marriages?

You people getting my drift here?

Joe Rizoli

12 Million of these people depend on you too.
>>The Mexicanization of America, races, with total support from Barack Obama and his Congress, full speed across our country. La Raza, the most racist organization in the world, licks its chops as sheer numbers of illegal aliens have taken over Los Angeles. They’ve run Americans out of countless cities and communities. They’ve trashed school systems and bankrupted 86 hospitals. They’ve thrown trash throughout the park systems. They defy laws by not carrying car insurance, driver’s licenses, work off the books paying no taxes, brutalize our schools with their language, spread drugs, and more terrifying are the thousands of cases of TB and hepatitis they spread into Los Angeles. In other words, they’re bringing their Third World into our world.<<
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty765.htm

But what are facts here anyway? What stage is my truth in now? Bob offered advice to sidestep the Rizoli's who talk about the real problems Americans are facing and will face in the future. We're just trying to get you people to think NOW about your future. Become "RACIST" because EVERY RACE will be involved in our struggles to survive the next 100 million people by the year 2030 as it is predicted. The so called "taxes" Illegals pay will be nothing, a drop in the bucket for the expense to care for all of them here. Do the math, the REAL math....We have a huge problem ahead to leave our children.....

Joe Rizoli

Joe, your seemingly telepathic ability to pigeon-hole someone you don't know actually says a lot more about you. It's actually a little sad. I'm not one to shy away from an intelligent, responsible, respectful debate. But you've proven time and time again that you're quiet capable of debating yourself into a masturbatory frenzy. Is it any wonder you're widely shunned?

The sad fact is that you have some good points that should be considered. It's just that your delivery undermines your credibility, taking those valid points down with you.

So you keep on doing what you do. And I'll let you have the stage to yourself. That's the only thing that makes you happy.

BTW - I can do the math. And you're right, the days of narrow-minded white guys are numbered. Where you and I differ is that I think that is a really good thing.

Bob B.....Nice referral to "white" guys.....Not to racist....LOL But you get away with it. Even stating that without stating your FULL name.
Whether we have one person on our side is not the issue, whether you agree with our delivery is NOT the issue. The problems are what they are and we're ALL suffering for it.
If you were on the Titanic you would of been one of the folks that would have said.....Lets go to the top deck and listen to the nice music, as this small inconvenience passes.
We would of been the ones making a lot of noise of the impending doom and wouldn't of been ashamed to have been told to shut up.
Jim@ccfiile.com

I will give you this Mr. Rizoli - my full name is Roberto Bolandrina. My friends call me Bob, so you can call me Mr. Bolandrina. I am a natural born citizen, so if you want to deport me to the land of my birth, then please book a ticket to Chicago IL. For the record, I am a first generation American son of legal immigrants who has lived in the Metrowest Area since 1969.

Since you're so good at making up the rest of the details of my life, I'll let you have at it. It makes for some pretty amusing, light reading. I enjoy being cast as a colonial era tory and now a passenger on a Jazz Era cruise. I can't wait to see what new adventure you cast me in...

And in the context you used in your last post, it's spelled 'too' as in "Not too racist". As a first generation American, I expect everyone in this country to be able to effectively use the English language with a level of proficiency appropriate for their age.

Bob....Thanks for the spelling lesson.
Usually that is all people can do when confronting us....hit our spelling.
Forget about the BIG issues at hand just hit the spelling.
Enjoy the music on the top deck, Oh....did I mention you might want to put your life preserver on, not that it's going help, but it will look like you know what you're doing....
Jim@ccfiile.com

I expect All Americans to stand up for America....i guess I'm wrong on that one.
I guess where you live you're not effected by the cost factor of illegals.
http://tinyurl.com/bqhb7jb
Jim@ccfiile.com

First, I also expect all Americans (and non-American's living here or abroad who enjoy the benefits of America's global presence) to support America's goals and ideals.

But I live in a world where love of country does not extend to blindly supporting hate-filled rhetoric or cherry-picking facts to support a narrow agenda.

Adult perspectives (like in Ms. Gagarin's article) understand the true nature of the problems we face. In this world, simplistic solutions like "deport them all" prove to be naive and unworkable (not to mention unaffordable).

In this grown-up world, we understand that cheap labor translates into lower consumer costs. Its easy to find articles discussing how rigid anti-immigration laws negatively affect American farmers. The cheap labor to babysit our kids, tend our yards and perform a myriad of other low-end jobs is a direct contribution to the American quality of life.

The issues around immigration are complicated, requiring an open mind to fully grasp the scope and magnitude. You have some valid points, but your blind-spots leave you with a lop-sided understanding and unworkable solutions.

Bob...you still refuse to answer...Why do I have to pay for it all?
And NOT complain?
Jim@ccfiile.com

Bob says:
"The issues around immigration are complicated, requiring an open mind to fully grasp the scope and magnitude. You have some valid points, but your blind-spots leave you with a lop-sided understanding and unworkable solutions."

You are correct here Bob except for the last sentence, but YOU haven't given one solution. We have solutions, obviously you don't.
Rule of Law would be a great place to start, but you have no idea what that is.

Joe Rizoli

I vote Bob pay for them all.....He seems to be a generous fellow.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Mr. Bolandrina, I think its time you take your own advice and tap out. Thank you for your input here and I have faith humane, realistic, and productive reform will come. Joe and Jim - the last word is all yours, I am confident you will take the opportunity.

You people are incredible. A little opposition to your views causes you all to run away.
Whatever happened to Americans who could ask questions, solve problems, have real facts not fallacies and have a good give and take? Apparently not here.
You people have to get something straight here. When you bring up Immigration we have done our homework. If you are going to play the game, go the distance. When people have nothing else to say it's usually because their theory's haven't passed the test of common sense, and they defend criminal activity and behavior my long dead Mom would cringe at. Some even resort to attacking ones spelling and English. I never resort to such belittling behavior even when I knew the opposition was really English challenged. Why? Because I deal with ISSUES not people. But it goes on all the time when the Rizoli's post and the opposition just can't come back with answers. Thus the smear tactics or the Patch bailout begins.
Framingham has already proved us right. Now we sit back and watch the fun begin. Don't worry, we're still here to offer suggestions but humility for this town is sometimes hard to find when the answer is staring you in the face and you look the other way.
Have some fun, watch some of our Cable shows.
http://ccfiile.com/Weekly_Shows.html
( Show 132 had some great "immigration" points brought out. ) Vera Values is a show stopper.
http://ccfiile.com/RIZOLI-TV.html

Joe Rizoli

I'm going to have to break this up into two posts (apologies to anyone who finds that incredibly annoying!):

As I was preparing for the budget/tax levy debates and discussions for town meeting, I came across some very interesting information that I think is relevant to this topic. Kira - your research is fascinating, and given that you are an immigration attorney, I doubt neither your methodology nor the accuracy of your information. I would argue, however, that we in Framingham are experiencing a much different scenario than what is presented here.
I looked at ten towns surrounding Framingham, and included Needham just for kicks. I found that Framingham’s tax rate in 2011, at $16.03per was higher than every town I looked at except Holliston and Sherborn. However, as far as schools are concerned, we spend more per student than every single town, including Sudbury and Wellesley, except Sherborn, who pays about $20 more. We pay our teachers more on average than every town except Sherborn, Dover, and Needham. Half of the towns had higher class sizes; half had lower. The kicker is that Framingham schools ranked 230 out of 331 Massachusetts towns on schooldigger.com. Every other town, even when they spent less per student or paid their teachers less, ranked much, much higher, from a high of 14 in Sudbury to a low of 97 in Ashland.

(to be continued, and I promise you this will all lead back to the topic)

Part 2:
Here’s where Framingham is different. 16.7% of our students are limited English speakers. The state average are 7.3%. The other schools ranged from a low of .5 percent to a high of 6.3%. Our percentage of low income students is 32.9%. The other schools ranged from a low of 2.3 to a high of 28.2.

I understand the correlation between poverty and the inability to speak English. I understand the correlation between the inability to speak English and poor school rankings. But honestly, it seems brutally unfair to me that Framingham residents are forced to shoulder this burden. With all due respect, I believe that it is easy to look at overall US data and surmise that all is well, and that everyone is paying their fair share. I wish the research I did today did not negate that, for I was much happier when I thought I simply had a problem of perception. It’s easy to take a liberal view of things when it’s not your pocketbook being hit. Please tell me how to feel good about this.

sources:
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/ppx.aspx
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/classsizebygenderpopulation.aspx
www.schooldigger.com
various town websites

What's sad about all of this is..... WE have to carry the burden of these Un-Funded mandates to provide for all these English impaired Children.
Again.....why should I be happy about this? It's time to get the state to chip in for our burden that WE have taken on here. Too make it even worse, what do you think is going to happen when full day kindergarten kicks in?
You aint seen nothing until that mad rush comes to town. The increases will be substantial to keep up with it all.
Jim@ccfiile.com

David....You can pay for all these Children.
This is about fairness, not race or hate, all your typical tirade of nonsense.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Wow Kim, again you go above and beyond. Happy that I was able to vote for you as a town meeting member and that you are representing south-south Framingham. The problems have been exposed and I don't think there is any debate Framingham is burdened with the expense of imigration, illegal or otherwise, so let this conversation mature to a debate about solutions.

We are getting blowback now for our inactivity to enforce our immigration laws. More blow back here;

Cape Cod woman held by ICE after fatal crash

By Associated Press
Wednesday, May 9, 2012 -
DENNIS -- A Cape Cod woman charged with motor vehicle homicide in the death of a Dennis florist has been taken into custody by federal immigration authorities.

A spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement says 58-year-old Maria Veras-Alves was arrested for allegedly overstaying her visa beginning in March 2003. She is a native of Brazil who has been living in Dennis.

Veras-Alves is facing charges including motor vehicle
homicide in connection with the death of 76-year-old Symen "Jim" Kooy, owner of Blossoms Florist of Cape Cod.

Joe Rizoli

I second Mr. Wendt on saying, "wow Kim". Thank you for joining the conversation and adding a well written, thoughtful, and heartfelt contribution to the discussion. While I was strictly speaking about taxes and my own reaction to the bumper sticker I saw, your expansion of the conversation is appreciated and welcome. I don't have an easy answer I don't think there is one. I don't have an answer to how you are supposed to feel good about what is going on in Framingham schools, in part (I agree) due to the impact of incorporating children that are new to the US and need more help than others. All I know is that I work with these kids and many have been through hell and back, violence, sexual abuse, you name it... And now they are here, however they got here, and they are kids that need an education, guidance, and resources. I learned English through immersion in everyday classes and I think that is the best way to catch up. I am thankful that my schools gave me that extra help to learn, but my parents were also a huge part of that where falling behind was not an option. I agree with Donald and yourself that not everything about immigration is rosy and that burdens are also a part of people coming here for a better future - illegally or legally. I do think though that the US is rich partly because of the opportunities it provides to people coming from nothing and having the chance to get somewhere. I think those kids need us and will give back once they get on their feet.

As numbersusa brings out it's not the people it's the numbers that are going to do the damage to America.
Another problem is what is called brain drain. We can NOT keep taking the best of these people and let them leave their countries destitute. We have to get the people to fix their countries of origin. So when you think of helping immigrants you may be doing a great disservice to their countries by allowing America to be flooded with immigrants, especially when they shouldn't be here in violation of USA laws. America should be settin an example for Rule of Law. As of now these people see a fractured country no different than the corrupt countries they left. In other words they feel at home here sad to say.
America, set the example, show that behaviors such as document fraud is unacceptable under any circumstances in America. Go through the proper channels to become citizens.

Joe Rizoli

Hi Kim,
Great you did some research, but I think there are some factual inaccuracies. You said of all the surrounding towns, all except Holliston and Sherborn have lower tax rates than Framingham's residential rate of $16.03. First, that is Framingham's 2011 residential tax rate. The 2012 tax rate is actually even higher ($16.94). But still, that is LESS than some neighboring towns, including Wayland ($19.01) and Sudbury ($17.60). You mentioned limited English and low income as perhaps the reasons behind our high cost per pupil. I don't think these students COST more than other students to teach. Rather, I believe it is the higher number of special education students that are driving our cost per pupil. It may be that poverty increases the risk for special education, not sure. But I've heard Framingham may be a magnet for families of those with special needs, perhaps because of the proximity to Learning Center for the Death and New England Center for Autism. I am not certain if this is true, and how much this contributes to our costs, but if it is true I think it is an unfair burden on Framingham residents. Not sure how the State would pick up the cost for limited english proficiency or low income students, but seems like picking up the cost for special education would be pretty straight forward.

John - I did mention that the quoted Framingham residential tax rate at $16.03 was from 2011, since the most readily available information on tax rates of surrounding towns was also from that year. I didn't include Wayland.

My point about limited English was that we have 16.7% limited English speakers in our schools, more than double the state average. And yes, our special ed population, at 19.8%, is also higher than the state average, but only by about 3 percentage points. And our low income student population is actually lower than the state average of 34.9% at 32.9%. Immigration does play a role in this, as does low income and special ed. I specifically pointed out the limited English-speaking and low-income population since that was most germaine to the original topic, the gap is double-digit, and it’s not a stretch to speculate that the two are linked.

The point really becomes – yes, every child deserves a quality education, a full stomach, and a decent place to live. I don’t know anybody who disputes that. But we are helping beyond our means. We are weakening our strengths (our tax-paying base and our infrastructure) to strengthen our weaknesses. We are in a position where someone needs to help us, because we are, in fact, helping others at a disproportionate rate.

I think the most prudent thing for me to do now is to start writing the State Legislature, as clearly this 3-pronged “problem” is beyond the control of the town.

Some comments on the writer's letter:

1. "Social Security Administration estimates that 75% of undocumented immigrants are actually on formal payrolls". Based on this statement - maybe the title of the letter should be "Pay Your Taxes, ONLY 3 Million Illegal Immigrants Depend on You!"

I am very curious to know how the SSA even arrived at that number. To me its almost equivalent of asking how many people exaggerate how much they give to charity when they do their taxes. Unless you audit every tax return you don't know. Since we don't even know how many illegals are even in the country - I'm not sure how you to get to 75% of a unknown number. Even if the 75% is true - that means at least 1 in 4 is cheating the system - and you don't think that is still a HUGE number?

2. Next the writer quotes from Wikipedia - as an attorney you can't be serious. There have been reports which state that 6 out of 10 Wikipedia entries have factual errors. So you really want to use Wikipedia as a cornerstone to your argument? I hope judges these days aren't making judgements based on 'evidence' from a wiki article.

3. The writer claims that illegals can't benefit from social programs. Well please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't one of our more famous local illegals, Obama's aunt receive things like :section 8 housing, medicare, medicaid, stipends, etc.?

Here's the deal....we are spending a LOT of money to pay for the children of illegals.
We can't continue to do it. We need help paying for all the un-funded mandates that we're paying for in so many ways, and that's the real issue.
If we continue the way we're going we're going to we're going to suffer financially.
To think the illegals and their children are not an issue here is not being honest. and factual.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Hi Derek, thanks for you input. Its a 4 paragraph blog, not a law journal article. I lightheartedly used Wikipedia, and joked about using it, I think we all know what Wikipedia is. But if you have a problem with that and from this blog deduce that I quote Wikipedia in court, then thats fine.

I am sure some undocumented immigrants do take take advantage of section 8 and the like. Just like stories have come out that lottery winners are doing the same. Nothing is 100% and there are always exceptions that we can shove in each others faces to prove a point.

As to your first point, again, I am sure some undocumented immigrants, just like some Citizens or Residents cheat the system. Your analysis of the numbers is a bit off though. That would mean that 25% are not on formal payrolls (that can mean self employed, independent contractor, etc...), not that 25% are "cheating the system" or not paying taxes.

Kira...You just don't get it! You have NO clue what's going on around you.
The illegals have found a way to cheat the system and it's costing us billions.
Did you see the video of the child tax exception?
http://tinyurl.com/bqhb7jb
The illegals are claiming many children as dependents (that they don't have) and it's costing us billions. the women are claiming spousal abuse and are able to get free housing and all the other benefits that go along with it, then they have the abuser move back in. Have you seen who visit the health clinics? 80% are composed of illegals. Go down and sit there and look for yourself that figure is pretty much on track.
Start doing some credible research and put aside you personal feelings, that seem to cloud the issues. We can only hold on for so long before this all overtakes us.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira, why is it the people like you and the "Nolta" generation always compare Illegals actions to Americans actions for illegal activity? Illegals are ILLEGAL and shouldn't be in any equation with Americans on anything.

As to Framingham, it has been targeted since the late 80's as a quick hit especially for the Brazilians. They tried to set up a Sister City but the Rizoli's obviously put a stop to at least the outward visable part of the program.

See our video called Vera Values on the internet.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9120719552939308165&hl=en

This was the meeting where a whole Brazilian political machine came to Framingham to endorse the Sister City Project. Our video shows the real values that came to Framingham through music and newspaper articles.

Kim brought out the impact on our schools we show the impact on our town as a whole.

Joe Rizoli

Kira - I think the issue still is what is the real number? How can you count 75% of a number they don't know? For years we've heard Framingham had 30,000 illegals - how do those that make that claim prove it - they don't. Do we have 30,000 - I don't think so (but I can't prove it either) - do we have thousands - probably likely.

The issue with the letter is that even though it is supporting the argument that illegals pay their fair share of taxes - it basically implies that it also supports illegal immigration - (which gets you the attention of the Riz Brothers).

While many may taxes - how many Americans lost jobs or small businesses folded trying to do things above board? (And to avoid the issue of illegals taking jobs that Americans don't want to do. I think a more correct statement should be illegals do jobs that Americans don't want to do at the wage an illegal is being paid.) While I don't have full blown statistics I do know of businesses not making it because their competition paid illegals under the table and they just could not compete at those prices. We're also talking good white collar jobs as well - how many foreign contractors have come in for high-tech and overstay their visas only to take a job away from another American?

Are illegals the cause of all our problems - of course not. Do they contribute to them - yes.

Derek....I think at the peak 2002-10 there were around 30k illegals here at least hanging around all over the town in some capacity.
Now I would say 5 to 10k, but the kicker here is the children that they have brought into the equation.
Our schools are being flooded by their kids and WE have to take care of them with NO help from anyone. If the trend continues the cost to us will be devastating.
When more than 30% of the kids in the school system are English impaired I would think we have a problem here. How do we solve that problem, simple throw more money into it according to them.
Trying to stop the reason for the problem is not even a thought by those who make their living catering to the issue. Teachers and their unions.
There are a lot of people making a lot of money taking care of the illegals and their children. Hard to put a stop to that. Illegal=jobs for many people. Police, courts, schools, welfare, etc etc.....That's why nothing is being done too many hands in the pie dish.
Jim@ccfiile.com

This quote basically sums up what happened to Framingham when it brought in the wrong people to revitilize their town:

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together
in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal
system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
Frederic Bastiat
(1801-1850) French economist, statesman, and author.
Source:
"The Law" by Frederic Bastiat (1848) http://liberty-tree.ca/research/TheLaw

We have allowed third world thinking in EVERY aspect of our town. The Schools, houusing, taxes, the enviorment, building laws, everything has ben touched by this goup of peoples. Notice PEOPLES. It's not just one group anymore. The plunder happened and now others have followed seeing how these former "plunder people" made good. That's where we are at.. The beautiful singing Canary in the cage is chirping next to the sparrow now. It has become a "way of life" to the point where this topic article writer and OTHERS, DEFENDS these actions of the "plunder people"

Joe Rizoli

Jim - not to start an argument - but out of shear curiosity - how was the 30,000 number arrived at, or even the 5-10 thousand now? Obviously you are not going door to door and doing a census - so how are you extrapolating to that figure?

I fell bad for all the kids who are going to find out their SS# was stolen and can't get into college buy a house or car when they find out their credit is ruined from illegals stealing the SS#'s. Gee glad they pay taxes. Oh ya. Thanks

Derek....The numbers I got are from those who are supposedly the "Experts" in the field. There was one video I recall of our last State Rep Pam Richardson who was quoted at her Democratic Caucus meeting saying the 30k figure.... by the way they refuse to let me use this clip in my videos. (copy right infringement) LOL
Imagine a news clip of a politician speaking is to them copy right infringement.
When I posted it they (youtube) threatened to close my Youtube account.
Nice of those democrats, actually TMM member Norma Schulman was behind it. The Dems hate to be exposed when caught in the act.
Then there are those from the Brazilian community who were eagerly quoted saying the same thing. Of course when bad behavior is highlighted the figure is lowered.
The numbers were put out there and NOT created by me, I'm just the messenger.
When I say something I make sure it's backed up from their sources.
Jim@ccfiile.com

I believe at the height of illegal immigration in the town it was about 65 a Day, at one point. St Tarcicius Church in the paper sometime back said that to their out each program they had 15 a DAY coming looking for help and looking for aid or jobs. We've discussed these figures so many times and even quoting the MWDN or the Boston Globe still doesn't help with some. We obviously don't have that many now BUT.... Their kids are coming here and are adding to the school system which COST us in bilingual education. Woodrow Wilson school is 80% Brazilian. Don't tell me that doesn't cost.
David. Nolta posted that he has to help these kids. My answer to David, a life boat holds 12 people, how many more can you fit in the life boat before you say no more?
Will there be a point where adding more to the boat may endanger YOUR life? When is enough enough? Illegal immigration is a town to town problem that adds to the final USA problem. It all adds up because people think only for their town. They don't have the foresight to see the overall problem.

Joe Rizoli

Kira...."You said..."stealing is illegal, sure... But if you are stealing bread to feed your family, there is certainly more to the story than just the breaking of the law."

If you were robbing banks to feed your kids, or how about selling drugs, do you think the courts would have mercy on you?
You can make all the excuses you want....Criminal activity will catch up to ya.
Another point.....the illegals that are coming here are NOT hard ship cases, they are part of a slave trade that they agreed to get into.
Sure they could of been lied to or in some cases or coerced but still they agreed to come here. The illegals from Mexico are most likely mules for the drug trade, once they get through they get their money and move North.
Illegal immigration is a very complex issue but the bottom line it's not good for the country, and that is the most important thing to consider.
Jim@ccfiile.com

GOD loves all no matter your race, color or age an AMERICA can use the help the illegals give us .

I'm baffled as to how an "illegal" can get a "legal" job and pay taxes. Really what does the word illegal mean in these instances? I don't get it.

One point I want to make. I noticed over the years in Milford, nearly every illegal woman who showed up in town quickly became pregnant. The same woman have had multiple children with 6 years olds walking next to the carriage carrying the 6 month olds. These children born here are born American because of a law change in the sixties I believe.

Now when they parent (s) get deported for whatever reason, the US is breaking up families?

I'm sorry if someone has to get deported, but if they love each other, they can always follow the deportee back home!

Maybe they should stop having children in the hopes of being anchored here!

The 14th Amendment needs to be changed to stop illegals who have no obligation to this country from giving birth to kids that become American citizens. It really borders on insanity that someone born here of illegal parents themselves becomes an American Citizen. It has been said that Koreans who do this come here pregnant so the children they birth here become citizens. It's another scam America has to put up with. 

How obligated are these kids who come here by illegal parents when they becoming Citizens to stay Citizens and comitted to America? Just check out the co founder of Facebook. He came here as a Brazilian kid became multi rich and denounced his Citizenship recently. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/facebook-co-founder-saverin-under-fire-for-renouncing-us-citizenship/2012/05/17/gIQAPFCyVU_story.html

You've Gota love those Brazilians. 

Joe Rizoli

Kira, you said it was fairly hard to get a job without documentation yet you then said it was easy to get a job, which is it?

Joe Rizoli

Most of the Illegals here have no attachment to the USA.
They are here for whatever they can get out of being here and the country can go to hell in a hand basket. Even the so called "Americans" are as traitorous as the illegals coming here, because they aid the illegals in every part of the way.
So our country is pretty much doomed......the illegals are stealing us blind and many Americans are sitting back and letting it all happen.
Now if you don't think this adds to the already low that this country has reached than you have to be crazy.
The Americans who sit back and watch it all are the blame and you know what? They are going to reap the whirlwind for it, in increase in taxes, and suffer sever quality of life issues as the monetary problems get worse.
The illegals don't worry because they came from a crap country and if this country turns into one they are already used to the scenery. Nothing changes for them.
Life goes on. God help us all!
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira, they work under the table paying no taxes................Period..........Get it?

Kira, What the hell are you talking about? Dribble dribble dribble. The Government does not know who they are and doesn't know they are here. What are you smoking man? Lay off the stuff. Kira where do you live? I happen to live right smack dab in the middle of illegal central in Framingham and your going to tell me what's going on? SHAME ON YOU!! They work under the table or steal an ID to get work. Do you believe everything the Government tells you? By the way Obama just said the the middle class is doing fine, do you believe that also? GOOD GOD MAN.

I could point out that I am not a man, but you may argue that too. Sure, if you don't want to believe the compiled statistics about who is paying taxes, you certainly don't have to. Have a nice weekend.

People ought to be able to express opinions on this site without being shouted down, accused of drinking, or what have you. Please keep it civil. A bit of respect goes a long way and people who are USING ALL CAPS are not displaying it.

I'll leave it up to your other half to to discuss that but anyway I will have a nice weekend because I'm getting out of Framingham for it.

If the Goverment does not know the illegal population and who's here so how on earth can they say they are paying SS and state tax other than when they purchase items in the store?

You don't need one of then there rocket scientist brains to figure that out.

Kira....educate yourself....illegals are stealing from us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9A3AgemXkA
Jim@ccfiile.com

I have deleted three posts that refer directly to drug or alcohol use by other posters. It goes without saying: don't write that stuff.

Dave, Come on over Frederick st way, The illegals don't hide their status whatsoever.
I know where they can get fake ID's at the end of my street with no problem at all.
My next door neighbor takes in illegal Mexicans when they are delivered (yes delivered) to Framingham, it's quite a scene to see when the truck pulls up and drops off a half dozen or more, (I have seen about eight vans with Texas plates over the years dropping them off and can just imagine how many I didn't see) they are given a sandwich and a place to bed down for a couple weeks till they get some money and are able to move across the street and away from the safe house. They are not allowed to go far because they must work to give the coyote the thousands of dollars they owe him for the whole process. I was talking to a new comer one time and he told me he was scared shi^less because he couldn't find a job right away and the smugglers were going to hurt his family back in Mexico if he couldn't pay. So any way Dave, this is my street and I rub elbows with these folks on a daily basis. That's how I know what I'm talking about so.............If that;s what you call gifted it's not a gift I wish upon anyone. Hell just ask Kira Gagarin for she is an immigration attorney here in Framingham and knows exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure her clients have told her the stories. Care to share one with us Kira?

Oh and Dave the illegal Asians have there own towns they hang out in, typically the illegals here would just eat them alive. That's fun loving diversity for you.

Thanks Mark, this is apparently what we have been telling people since CCFIILE.com got started. Nobody believed us or you. I can bet the police know about this. It would be hard to believe they don't. Then again, they take their orders from that American Hate group thte ADL.

Joe Rizoli

Kira...They trust Mark.....LOL What does that say about you.
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira, it was a reply from Dave's sarcasm toward me saying I'm gifted to be able to recognize an illegal. I didn't poke any fun at anything in fact I myself find it very disturbing to hear these stories about the abuse and like you say the woman are treated much worse.(ever heard of rape trees?) I do not speak Spanish and have a hard time understanding them most of the time but you would be surprised at the English that some of these newcomers have. As gaining their trust, I am friends with the safe house guy Jose and have known him since he came here about 6 or 7 years now that's why they trust me (he's the boss and he likes me). Every time I see a new comer who is female I cringe thinking what's going on in these houses with these folks. I have seen several woman sitting crying and shaking outside a few times early in the morning while I was on my way to work and it makes me feel sick all day just wondering what happened. I am not a heartless man just a guy who wants the laws enforced. If you ever get any from Frederick let me know because they all know me.

A couple of years ago we had a protest called "don't feed the bears". Bob Berman was there to see us. What it was about was that in Yellowstone National Park it is imperative that people don't feed the bears there. Yes, the bears are cute and you think you're helping them, but you are not. Infact you may be killing them or having them meeting a timely death. WHY? Because helping the bears causes them to rely on humans for their food which isn't good for wild animals. If the bears don't get their food then they raid the camp sites and even kill some people.
This is called blowback.
 We have the same problem with helping illegals. Helping  illegals helps perpetuate a criminal empire that hurts people including rapes, family breakups, divorce and all those social problems that come with the illegal alien "blowback". So thinking you are helping these people is really not helping.

 Lastly, helping the illegals doesn't help the countries of origin of these people to solve their problems of employment. Those countries never fix their problems, it is thrown on the USA. The richest person in the world, Carlos Slim lives in Mexico, he is doing nothing to help the problem of illegal aliens leaving his/her country to work here in the USA. 

Go to the Social Contract Magazine Spring 2012 pp69
Chapter 13

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/

Joe Rizoli

Here is the video of the don't feed the bears protest.
Mark you're in this.....
http://tinyurl.com/bqx6r8x
Harvard article about it
http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/files/Brazilian%20Immigrant%20Participation.pdf
Jim@ccfiile.com

Mary, what's the odds of just not crossposting Framingham articles here in Milford? Getting tired of hearing the rants of the two village idiots over there. I lived in Framingham for awhile and love the majority of the people there but its getting sad to realize I associate the town with those two now.

Myd....We come up with the facts you can't stand the truth...
Jim@ccfiile.com

Kira, as to your original article here about taxes I would read this link that Jim posted. It starts off talking about The Rizoli's and the group CCFIILE.
>>http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/files/Brazilian%20Immigrant%20Participation.pdf <<

1, The article on the printed page 2 mentions that Framingham had at that time
14-20 THOUSAND Brazilians Immigrants.

( We still believe it was more but this is good ) Right Donald?

2, Jim Rizoli is quoted on page 3 saying:
"we do not have a problem with legal aliens who come that are trying to do it right"

( Rizoli's are NOT racist or hate "immigrants" that are legal )

3. Now, as to Kira's article: this VERY important quote page 7.
>>That...Self-employed, undocumented immigrants ( are ) the subgroup least likely to pay income taxes>>

and that p 8 >>Many Brazilians in Massachusetts have started the own construction, painting, and cleaning companies instead of seeking employment in other peoples businesses>>

pp 100>>However, many Brazilian immigrants who took the survey indicated that they do not routinely pay taxes on their income.>>'

pp 114>>Undocumented subcontractors were the subgroup of immigrants least likely to pay income taxes.>>

Kira, do you see what this article proves? The "illegal" Brazilians are mostly SELF Employed and they are the LEAST likely to pay income taxes..

Joe Rizoli

Ok let's keep track of the civility that Mary talks about.
How about being called names like imbecile, nitwits. And the latest "village idiots"

Mary, you're doing a great job.
Apparently the rules for Patch only apply for a few.

Joe Rizoli

Joao, human trafficated to Framingham

>>The human trafficking network that has sprung up around the transport of Brazilians to the United States via Mexico is extensive and sophisticated. One of the people whom I interviewed, João, told me about the illicit network that oversaw his trip from Minas Gerais to Boston. He paid a travel agent in Brazil to arrange his journey, which began with a flight to a Mexican border city. Once there, João was connected with a professional smuggler who hid him underneath some blankets in the back of a car and drove him into the United States. The man then took him to an airport in California and put him on a plane to Boston, Massachusetts. When João arrived in Boston, yet another smuggling network employee picked him up at the airport and drove him to his brother’s apartment in the nearby town of Framingham. There, João’s brother paid the driver the remaining sum of money that João owed to the human trafficking organization for his safe arrival in Massachusetts.<<
PP 20..

http://www.drclas.harvard.edu/files/Brazilian%20Immigrant%20Participation.pdf

Joe Rizoli

There are some that think that the illegals come her haphazardly but as you can see its a fine tune organization that runs it.
We've been telling you this for years but you refuse to listen.
Sad to see how the Americans are contributing to this modern day slave trade and refuse to speak up.
When people like us do say something we're labeled as haters and racist.
The real heaters are the ones that allow this to go on.
Jim@ccfiile.com
Bw