Is there any estimates for the costs of the traffic study? Nobscot Plaza is such a blight in that area that anything seems to be a step forward in re-vitalizing it.

In the above post there are factual errors which I correct here:
1. The cost of the land is included in the total price and will not be voted separately
2. The breakdown of the cost and sources of funds for the new branch library are:
Cost: $8,648,329
State $4,186,560
Foundation $ 600,000
Town $3,861,769

I hope this removes any confusion.

Sam Klaidman
Library Trustee and Chair of the Building Committee

Sam--Thank you for your clarification, I appreciate your input as always:)!

Mr. Mullen:
Concerning the cost: A study such as this is open--I gave a good faith estimate* of between $20-$50,000 (which by using Sam's figures above the Total cost of the project being $8,648,329 is .00588 of the total cost). Studies such as these can go higher as it depends on what type of data is to be gathered. I included that the Proposed Traffic Study encompass a review of the traffic at the present location of the existing Branch Library at Water/Nicholas in Saxonville. * In my informational packet I attributed the good faith estimate in speaking with an employee of the Massachusetts Department of Transporation. Even if the study became $100K it would only be 1.1% of the cost of the Proposed New Branch. Feel free to ask more questions.

Concerning the Nobscot Plaza-there has been ongoing discussions with this for several years. More recently after layers of the 'onion' have been peeled back it has been revealed the landlord of the property has a 40 year lease with 'Supervalue' --these folks have just gone throught a bankrupcy reorganization. The sad fact seems regardless of the lease the landlord draws his rent for the 40 year period--consult with Brett Peruzzi who is active in the local Nobscot Group. There is a meeting being held tonight, February 25th, 2012 at the Heritage Assisted Living Center on Water Street at 7:00. I invite you to attend.
Thank you for your comments. RB

With all due respect, a traffic study for a branch library? The neighborhood had no problem handling traffic when the Nobscot shopping center was alive and well, why would it not be able to handle a small and hopefully steady stream of library goers?

As a Town Meeting Member, I have not made up my mind as of yet in approving the Library construction and land purchase, but I do know that unless there was some major new information that I am unaware of I would not support spending additional money to study traffic patterns.

This sounds a lot like a NIMBY response. It may not be, but this really sounds like a way to shut the project down without having to publicly oppose a library being built. I would love to have a Library within walking distance of my home.

Rich Bobrick - how do I get on the email list? I want to keep up on the library developments.
I live less than half a mile from Hemenway school, so my family and I will be impacted by the new library (provided it does get built).
Even with the Nobscot Plaza being mostly vacant, Water street can get very backed up at school drop-off and dismissal times. This may be due to an increase in parents driving their children to Hemenway as a result of changes to the busing policies.
Best regards,
Dan

@Dan - If you live in Nobscot, I would recommend joining Nobscot Neighbors to get updates for the neighborhood as well as signing up for our Framingham Patch newsletters. We have been writing about the library project for more than two years now.
Register for Framingham Patch newsletters at: www.Framingham.Patch.com/newsletters

Nobscot Neighbors at -- http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/framnobscot

Dan-thank you for asking how to get linked into the on line forums for those folks interested in Nobscot happenings. As Susan Petroni mentioned in the above post the site at e-democracy is the most current method in accessing one of the groups. I believe the identifier within e-democracy is:
framnobscot@forums.e-democracy.org

As many other folks have also expressed interest I am going to provide another source. Brett Peruzzi has been instrumental in being the organizer and moving force, so if you have further questions I would defer to him. The other source is: nobscot.org.

Again, thank you for your interest.
RB

Hi Rich, I am just curious to know if you have copies of the extensive traffic reports that were done for Nobscot when the JCHE project was in the works and the one when Heritage was in the works. What were the outcomes of those reports? If so, do you know where they are available online?

Bob

Bob--That is a great question! I believe you can go onto the Mass DOT website and if you can figure out how to use their presentation spreadsheets you will find at least one. I took a look at it so I know it exists. However, I am truly perplexed as to if you can find a depository of that information from any entity of our Town Government? If you can find it locally--please share the location of such documents with the rest of us!

The existing information would serve as a reasonable 'base-line' but the data if 'usable' would have to be compared to the present site of the EXISTING Branch Library. That is why within the Citizens Petition presented to the Town for the Traffic Study--an element of the study is to measure the traffic presently at the existing location. Seems reasonable to attempt to measure the existing location with the proposed location-with current information not studies done in excess of 4+ years ago. If you get stuck feel free to call the helpful folks at Mass DOT their number is- 857--368-4636. I did attribute in my verification of sources when I presented the Traffic Study Proposal to this number and to the DOT Staff. The citation was enclosed within the 20 page presentation package presented and shared with 70+ families in Precint 5.

Bob-- A 'de novo' (from the beginning or afresh) Traffic Study is what the merits of the Proposed Traffic Study set forth. Although the study's you mention may exist and they will be helpful as historical information-they will not reflect information needed to assess the infrastructure of the existing roadway where the new Branch Library is proposed. None of the existing material you mention address what the present volume of traffic is at the EXISTING PRESENT site the the Branch Library. If you know of any please let us know. What the Proposed Traffic Study will measure is that present volume. Then coupled with a survey of the roadway (the proximity of Station 7 of the Fire Department, Heritage Assisted Living, Hemenway Elementary School with 600+- students and staff along with the Nobscot Plaza) and whatever existing data available from the sources you have alluded to--then the engineers can make a reasonalble determination if the roadway can handle the traffic or if improvements to the roadway will be needed. If improvements are needed the costs of such improvements. Remember you are proposing to place a Branch Library structure having the documentation of being the second largest Branch Library in the State of Massachusetts (by circulation*) on that roadway. Again Thank You for your on point comments and cogent questions as it allows robust discussion on the issues. * On page 17 of my presentation package the statistic of 249,097 circulated items appears see chart

I don't think a traffic study is a bad idea. Think of how many accidents there are in Framingham every day. Think of how many pedestrians have been killed. I believe one was killed at Water and Edgell in the last year. I saw I think here on Patch that Hemenway parents were complaining about issues with safety on Water Street and students almost being struck. I think any money to study the issue would be worth a life.

Mary-You bring up some factual issues. I believe you are correct in that there was a pedestrian fatality at the intersection of Water and Edgell within the past year. Just this week the Hemenway Elementary School implimeneted a trial schedule adjustment which has been discussed here in the Patch forum. I would suggest that you and any other concerned Citizens of Framingham contact both your Town Meeting Representative and the Selectment and request they support having the Traffic Study as proposed in the Citizen Petition.

Your last sentence of your comment is very powerful-it speaks volumes and is worth all the other words and comments already presented on this subject in this forum.

I attribute the following to Mary Gonzalez "...I think any money to study the issue would be worth a life.'

Amen

I have to agree that I feel that a $ 50,000.00 bill to study traffic is not needed. Here are my thoughts and suggestions ( take them or leave them ).

I really don't feel that the Library traffic ( even though it is the 2nd busiest branch ) will be much of an impact. It is not like there is a steady stream of cars entering and exiting at one time at the current branch in Sax. It is spread out over the coarse of the day.
The amount of traffic that The Heritage House produces seems to be a very low volume, including employees and residents.
The Nobscot Fire Station's average of 20 calls per week works out to an average of less than 3 calls per day which is spread out over a 24 hour period so I really don't think that is an issue.
More to follow ...............

The real issue is created by the number of cars entering and exiting with children being dropped off and picked up. I would like to propose the following. At drop off and pickup, have the cars enter and drive around to the rear of the building and let the kids enter the building at the door next to the gym. Continue to have the area staffed with the appropriate number of teachers to assist the kids. The Buses can continue to drop off and pickup in the front of the school ( but now they can use 2 lanes instead of only one. I think this would really help with the backup of cars on Water Street. By doing this you would get way more vehicles off of the road and into the lot.

The 3rd thing is try to get the Framingham Police to enforce the NO PARKING on the side of Water Street that the school is on. I have asked them to do this but they told me they do not have the staff to do this. I am sorry that I feel this way but the cars parked there really do contribute to the congestion on Water Street. I know that when I go thru that area when the cars are parked there, I go at a snails pace because I am always afraid that someone is going to open their door into oncoming traffic and I am also worried that a child might dart out from between 2 cars and then a tragedy would happen.

Thank you Brian for your input. Your insightful comments concerning a more vigorous enforcement of existing traffic guidlines by the Police and suggestions to improve Hemenway drop off/pickup procedures to improve traffic flow are reasonable. I would respectfully suggest you direct (I realize you HAVE approached the Police) your comments to HIGHER management levels of both the Police and School Departments-as your concerns and suggestions are valid. Note, this past week Hemenway did implement a 'test' of new drop off times. Just a 'test'.

Concerning your observations about volume of traffic generated by Heritage and the existing Branch Library--other than your obsrvations--can you proffer any verified data? If you can--PLEASE share that with us. The certification/verification of such data is what we beleive is needed to ensure a safer roadway infrastructer at the proposed Branch Library site. Therefore a need for a formal study.

I must demur to your comment on the cost of the proposed study. I do defer to Mary Gonzales's prior comment related to concerns of Hemenway Elementary students in jeopardy due to traffic. She so eloquently wrote: "... I think any money to study the issue would be worth a life."

I would not want to be the Framingham Resident who needed a response from Engine 7, and that response was delayed by traffic impediments.

I believe that currently, at the Fire Station in Nobscot, there is a traffic light which automatically turns red when fire response is needed. This forces all traffic in both directions to stop so that there won't be any traffic for the truck when exiting the station and little traffic in the direction it is heading.

I tend to believe that we have already studied the traffic in this area ad nauseum - for JCHE, TD Bank and the Library (yes, a study was already done)... Library traffic is far from constant and the notion that McAuliffe is the 2nd busiest branch in Massachusetts is old data. Based on data from Mass Library Commissioners, circulation in the Framingham Library system is on the decrease.

I think that this request for a study is just a thinly veiled attempt to stall this project from proceeding.

Brad you surface many correct and operative issues. Yes, there is a traffic signal for Station 7 that serves to stop traffic on Water Street to allow the trucks to leave the Station when answering a call. And yes, their are previous studies, as you so well state-'ad nauseum' for prior projects in the area. I and others have indicated their existence in previous postings. However, the study you cite concerning the Library--can you clarify as to where it exists--as the Board of Selectmen, others and myself are unaware of such--and your input on the issue would be welcome.
Where is the study?

Concerning your comment that the data used is not current and more current data is available indicating a decline in circulation in the Framingham Library system-does that capture the current Branch Library or the entire aggregate of total circulation? As the data I have provided is of 2011 and does indicate the present Branch is the second largest by circulation in the State.

Personally, I am all for the Branch Library. Your comment about the purpose of the study being"...a thinly veiled attempt to stall this project...' is misplaced. No where in any part of my presentations is it indicated that the study must be pror to or before anything to do with the Branch Library Project. It is vevy narrow in scope-it is to provide for a workable roadway for the building. However, your comment about decrease in circulation gives pause-is a new Branch Library needed? I don't know-do you?

Rich - A traffic study about the current traffic for the branch library was done during the initial planning of a new library - on the site of the existing one. This is the proposal that was defeated by Town Meeting on at least two occassions. I find it interesting that in your above reply you state "No where in any part of my presentatiions is it indicated that the study must be prior to or before anything to do with the Branch Library Project" especially since in the original article, it clearly states:
"This Article would request that a Traffic Study be done before they proceed with the purchase of the land for the library."

Perhaps you can clarify the differences in these two statement.

There is no 2011 data on branch circulation volume. All data claiming the McAuliffe branch to be the second busiest is from the original discussions.

All that said, I am in favor of the library project as I think the new location will better serve Framingham and will be more easly acccesible and viable as a library location.

Brad-Thanks for the note. There is data for 2011. To clarify-the data I am using indicating the McAuliffe Branch is the second largest by circulation is dated for the.. ' Period, Start 2011-07 12 months'. This is from a report from the Massachusetts Public Libraries--Outlets--2011 data. I included the page in my 20 page package to the residents in my Nobscot area. I will fax it to you as it is one page. (give me your fax) It lists the top 30 libraries.

Concerning any indication that the request for the Traffic Study be"...done before they proceed...' I do not believe that is in the actual language of the Proposed Article. Again, please provide where the traffic study you indicated was done for the present McAuliffe Branch physically resides? I would be pleased to see it as it would cut the proposed cost of the study in my proposal. Again, the proposed study is for the new site. I know of no study done for the Proposed site. If anyone can tell me where it is I would appreciate it.

While I agree a new location would be better for the library since there really seems to be no way to expand the existing building, the question that continues to be out there is it worth it? Yes we have the 50% off coupon from the state, but that means we still need to come up with 4 million bucks - yes it would be bonded - but is it the best use of 4 million bucks? And is there a guarantee that the price will stay within that range? How many building projects have the 'unforeseen' items that require additional money - nothing just ever seems to come in on budget. Can we hold the contractor(s) liable if things go over budget?

Given the current condition of the main branch I'm just not sure we should not be investing it there instead - and maybe not the whole 4 million.

Would it be nice to have a branch new spanking branch library on the North side? Sure. But we still need to be always asking ourselves do we really need it. In the long term is it really a good investment of our tax dollars? Town meeting has shot this down before because it didn't think so. And, I still have not seen enough of a compelling reason to do it.

Derek--your points are well taken. I am sure that as the various stakeholders involved in the process 'circle the wagon train' to make the case for or against having a new structure many more folks like yourself will be voicing their input to theire Town Meeting Representatives and Selectmen. I would urge you and all Framingham Residents to attend any and all upcoming Selectmen's Meetings and Town Meetings to be held during March and April. Without participation of concerned Residents the outcome of the matter may be controlled by a few instead of the many. Like everything in Town Government it is a process: the actual land has yet to be purchased*. Then the increase in the Tax rate to support the cost not provided by the state. (*I suggest everyone review the comment by Sam Klaidman of February 25th, above ,in this blog. Sam is on the Library Committee and provided the figures.)

Another aspect is: if the new structure is larger will the same number of employees of the Library Department be able to staff it? Would their be increased staffing leading to more Town Employees, more benefits paid over time above the initial Capital Costs of actually building the structure?

Rich makes excellent points. All you ever hear is how much of a "coupon" percent off we have. But almost never do we hear about cost overruns and impacts to future operating budgets. yes the coupon says us 50%, but not buying the item at saves us 100%.

Hmmm. A new branch library (or at least a rebuilt one on the current site) has now been voted down twice by Town Meeting, so I am not sure that you can say that it has just been looked at like a "coupon". Town Meeting and other committees have put hundreds of hours into discussion of this specific issue, and decisions like this are not made lightly.

My issues are not traffic related (sorry Rich), I am far more concerned about spending significant money on a library in 2013 when we really have no idea what a library is going to look like in 2020. For me to vote in approval, I will need to hear a compelling case that we are not throwing money into a brick and mortar infrastructure that may not be the delivery vehicle for library services into the near future.

Bob, the 50% coupon remark was for those that say we're getting it for 50% off - i.e. its a bargain! I agree with you 100% - the compelling case is not there and Town Meeting has twice shown the wisdom of seeing that too.

Bob-NO need to apoligize. I sincerely hope that the tone and tenor of this entire dialogue has indicated that all are welcome to come forth and voice their opinions (or facts) as they deem reasonable and relevent to the centeral issue. That issue would be to get the 'best bang for the buck' in going forward on a New Branch Library.

Your comments are not misplaced as they are relevant and cogent and run to the central issue: is there a need for a new 8+-MIlion Dollar Branch Library? And when you compile all the cost variables--my roadway study/improvenents, cost of personnel, cost of maintaining the structure, issues on increasing the tax base to support such a project--you have to ask the questions you put forth. As an observation: why in this era of technology where paper is shunned and the computer is 'king' (we are communicating in this medium via electrons and our fingers)--the Revolution of the Internet--why do we need another brick and mortar structure? It is because the is 4.2 Million Dollars of coupon or 'free money'. Or are their Empire builders? My simple thrust has been if the structure gets built lets make the roadway safe so everyone can use it. I do have a question that maybe someone can give input. I reviewed the Brownfield study (which will be updated) and although it mentioned a small 'unnamed' stream--what about the 3 named ponds of old that still drain in that area? The appear on some old maps. Does anyone know the names of those 3 ponds?

RE the traffic study for the library at Nobscot. From my observations it is Henmenway School that provides the most traffic on Water St. at drop-off & pick up times. I did talk once with Police Dept, but not much can be done about it. Evidently, a policeman there to help move traffic would have to be paid thru school dept & that is not able to be done.There is a two mile walking limit for the schools & people are not going to let their 5 to 10 year old kids walk to school. Times have changed. I totally avoid Water street at school start & end of day. And I believe alot of the buses do let off & pick up kids at the side of the building so am not sure that would be good for parents to do. Also, Brain is absolutely correct about the parents parking on WAter st. That needs to be banned-it is a dangerous situation.. I would like to see a larger Saxonville Library in Nobscot , but I wonder if right now our money would be better spent on the main library which has problems that need attention.. We spent 3 years having Water ST. repaired after sewer & water line work & do not want to even think about road work there again for a long time. My thoughts, but I am not for spending money on a traffic study after all of the new building in Nobscot-there must be info available to use. Many of the people who travel through Nobscot could do a traffic study & give you info. Nancy Lawson

Nancy, you have several valid points. They center on the Hemenway Elementry School with the 600+ students and staff. I would just like to add that there are 18 busses morning and afternoon involved in the mix. Again, you bring us several other points concerning student pick up/drop off and the problems of traffic control associated with the school. Keep in mind the Heritage Assisted Living, Nobscot Plaza and Station 7 all contribute to the traffic.
What everyone has neglected to observe is that Water Street is at its narrowest at the proposed area of the egress to the new Library. The existing Crosswalk from the Heritage across Water Street (almost to in front of the house to be taken) is only 35 feet across. The Crosswalk by the existing McAuliffe is 49 feet across Water. Or 14 feet wider. (all measurements I made were 'curb to curb') 14 feet is an entire lane for a vehicle! Everyone has been intimating there is no problem with traffic flow at the present site of the Library. They are correct--because, if the same people who you want to observe and give me information for the proposed site were to observe the traffic at the existing site--they would see vehicles on Water St passing cars turning into Nicholas to the Library. Both sides of Water are used for 'passing lanes' at that point-because its 14 feet wider! The roadway at the new site needs to be at least that wide to facilitate the volume of traffic-to enable passing. A study is needed to plan for this.